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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:19 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Tonewoods work not because they have any affect on the pickups but because they affect the vibration of the strings which is where tone starts.


Which is precisely what renders basswood unsuitable as a tone wood. Its porous composition naturally attenuates any vibration generated by a plucked or strummed string. That's why you'll never see a fine acoustic instrument such as a violin, cello, or dreadnaught guitar with a basswood body.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:54 pm
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nyquilcoma wrote:
My point was that despite the fact that there are seemingly no scientifically measurable differences between "tone woods" (quotation marks, again) or any other building materials used in the construction of solid body electric guitars, many players and listeners believe they can discern a difference. Whether this difference is real, or only perceived in the ears of said players and listeners, becomes a moot point. If such a real or perceived difference did not exist, then this topic would not continue to be argued, ad infinitum.

We really don't need to get scientific, to detect differences, we have ears that should tell us.

Try these 2 simple experiments, you won't blow anything up, I hope. :shock:

First Experiment - Hear Body Resonance Only.

Hold guitar upright and just support neck with one hand.
Hold and dampen all 6 strings midway with that same one hand.

Plug into amp, set amp vol above 8, or loud.
Set on guitar everything to 10 and to bridge pickup.

Take your other hand and Tap your finger pad on back of neck near below headstock.
Tap finger pad on pickguard.
Tap anywhere else.

You should be hearing clearly the tapping through your amp.
It's your pickups, picking up body resonance.

Second Experiment - Maple vs Rosewood Hear the Difference

Needs 2 Strats: one Maple fretboard, one Rosewood fretboard.

Hold guitar upright and just support neck with one hand.
Hold and dampen all 6 strings midway with that same one hand.

Plug into amp, set amp vol above 8, or loud.
Set both guitars everything to 10 and to bridge pickup, or same pickup.

Take a plastic guitar pick in other hand.
Tap the Rosewood fretboard between strings with pick sideways behind 4th fret.
Listen carefully to what you hear, lock it in, or record it.
Do same with the Maple fretboard.

* You will notice a difference, like the maple tapping is somewhat louder, or defined, or added higher frequencies.

You are hearing clearly what your pickups - pick up, this time only resonance through the body, no string vibration.
But if you play your Strats unplugged then this doesn't matter :P

I don't think a steel pickguard has even this much audible effect difference on Strats when tested, as the difference between Maple and Rosewood fretboards seems more noticeable in this similar test.

Possibly materials do matter.
Maybe that's why we don't have a plastic bridge on our Strats :lol:
Or why we pay more for a Strat made of better quality materials.

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Last edited by Johnny Soniq on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:27 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
(...) renders basswood unsuitable as a tone wood (...)

Fender uses basswood (anyone remember the Showmasters?). Suhr. Ibanez. Anderson.
I could go on and on and on and...

One question on this subject seems to get very little attention, although in a way BeamerKTM kinda brushed it with the pick/finger comment:
If the choise of fretboard material (maple/rosewood/pau ferro/ebony/flaxwood/composite...) has an effect on the sound of the guitar, is that difference a) measurable b) audible c) significant..?


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:38 am
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Speculating further:-


PUPS will pick up body/pick guard resonance.

There are some suggestions this is irrelevant to the stings. This is impossible as PUPS can only pick up electromagnetic fluctuations. It is impossible for them to do anything else.

However, if the sting is stationary and the PUP moves, through body or pick guard vibration, the PUP will pick this up.

Taking this further (in simple terms because I am a simple person) If the string is vibrating at 100 Hz, and the body/pick guard has a resonance which allows it to vibrate at 25 Hz, the resulting note will fluctuate between 125 and 75 Hz subject to where the peaks and troughs of each interface. It isn't as simple as that as the magnitude of the two fluctuations are very different. But there must be some effect.

The whole magnitude of fluctuations is the crux of the matter though. Is it really sufficient to be audible?

As a separate point:-

Construction is obviously critical to to performance of a guitar. If you have a guitar made of unobtainium, the guitar will not change the purity of the string vibration in any way and sustain would be spectacular.

If you have a guitar made of rubber it might allow one fluctuation of the string and absorb all others subsequentry.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:53 am
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jmattis wrote:

...One question on this subject seems to get very little attention, although in a way BeamerKTM kinda brushed it with the pick/finger comment:
If the choise of fretboard material (maple/rosewood/pau ferro/ebony/flaxwood/composite...) has an effect on the sound of the guitar, is that difference a) measurable b) audible c) significant..?


I think in certain circumstances the answer is yes but it is perhaps one of those "perfect storm" situations. There are so many variables at play that anything could change its impact including string gauge, tuning, particular note etc. etc. It must be one of the goals of every instrument maker to extend the probability of hitting that sweet spot in order to emphasise a particularly desirable characteristic.

It is perhaps why the default tone manipulation on a Strat is changing the PUP's. It is quick, easy, repeatable and controllable. Guitar construction is so much more difficult because one piece of wood can perform differently to another piece, even from the same tree. That difference may only be tiny but it could be the difference in hitting or missing that sweet spot.

It is why, of two identical specification guitars, we will prefer to play one over the other but probably couldn't put into meaningful words why.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:21 am
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John Sims wrote:
Speculating further:-


PUPS will pick up body/pick guard resonance.

Right on John...not speculation, but reality
You have done that little First Experiment above.

John Sims wrote:
There are some suggestions this is irrelevant to the stings. This is impossible as PUPS can only pick up electromagnetic fluctuations. It is impossible for them to do anything else.

Ultimately suggestions, assumptions and perculations from another reality and time far from this earth, that even tried to destroy Dr Who.
The body holds the strings in place, so it's gonna get a fair bit of that vibe.

John Sims wrote:
However, if the sting is stationary and the PUP moves, through body or pick guard vibration, the PUP will pick this up.

mmmm, pickup doesn't really move when it's quiet firmly screwed in place, and we just tap high on the fretboard with a plastic plectrum, as in 'First Experiment' above, yes it will pick up that tapping vibration.
Maybe the pickup would move and vibrate if I hit the guard with a hammer.

John Sims wrote:
Taking this further (in simple terms because I am a simple person) If the string is vibrating at 100 Hz, and the body/pick guard has a resonance which allows it to vibrate at 25 Hz, the resulting note will fluctuate between 125 and 75 Hz subject to where the peaks and troughs of each interface. It isn't as simple as that as the magnitude of the two fluctuations are very different. But there must be some effect.

Yes keep it simple, I like that too, but where did you get this from? 'the body/pick guard has a resonance which allows it to vibrate at 25 Hz'
Maybe rubber vibrates at 25 Hz?
No wood guitar body could have such a limited resonance frequency. It would be a disaster. Not even Basswod :shock: and I had JS1000 made from that, nice and light, it's just the neck I didn't like, too thin.
My 'First Experiment' above proves the body resonance frequencies are quiet broad, you can hear it through your amp.
Not so sure about the poor old plastic guard though. It resonates for 0.7 seconds in a range of frequencies in my test (page 2), but that could be the result of the microphone picking up the light tap from the timpani mallet, as I suggested before.

John Sims wrote:
The whole magnitude of fluctuations is the crux of the matter though. Is it really sufficient to be audible?

Hey John, you haven't done the 'Second Experiment Maple vs Rosewood' above yet. I'm disappointed now :( Try it, you will hear a difference. I do, and I'm no superhuman, as I keep reminding close friends :roll:

John Sims wrote:
As a separate point:-

Construction is obviously critical to to performance of a guitar. If you have a guitar made of unobtainium, the guitar will not change the purity of the string vibration in any way and sustain would be spectacular.

If you have a guitar made of rubber it might allow one fluctuation of the string and absorb all others subsequentry.

Yes Unobtainium :!: Let's make one, does that come from Pandora?
But you're right, it's quiet a separate point, and at one stage, briefly a very good speculative point, but this stick has probably lost it's point, and would be very blunt by now, and maybe useful for poking someone in the eye with :P

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:30 am
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Johnny Soniq wrote:
John Sims wrote:
However, if the sting is stationary and the PUP moves, through body or pick guard vibration, the PUP will pick this up.

mmmm, pickup doesn't really move when it's quiet firmly screwed in place, and we just tap high on the fretboard with a plastic plectrum, as in 'First Experiment' above, yes it will pick up that tapping vibration.
Maybe the pickup would move and vibrate if I hit the guard with a hammer.



The PUP can't make a noise if it and the string are 100% static relative to each other. Either the string is moving or the PUP. I agree that the obvious is the string is moving but the PUP can not be completely stationary unless it were screwed to a slab of lead. Any tiny knock or vibration against the guitar body will manifest its self in some way to a tiny movement of the PUP. Your pick guard resonance tests prove this. They say the PUPs will move more because they are fixed to the stainless steel pick guard which is moving/resonating.

Quote:
John Sims wrote:
Taking this further (in simple terms because I am a simple person) If the string is vibrating at 100 Hz, and the body/pick guard has a resonance which allows it to vibrate at 25 Hz, the resulting note will fluctuate between 125 and 75 Hz subject to where the peaks and troughs of each interface. It isn't as simple as that as the magnitude of the two fluctuations are very different. But there must be some effect.

Yes keep it simple, I like that too, but where did you get this from? 'the body/pick guard has a resonance which allows it to vibrate at 25 Hz'
Maybe rubber vibrates at 25 Hz?
No wood guitar body could have such a limited resonance frequency.


They were just arbitrary figures picked out of the air to conveniently illustrate the maths of the theory. I had rather hopped that they were so arbitrary that no one would assume they were anything other than irrelevant figures. :(

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:36 am
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Retroverbial wrote:

Which is precisely what renders basswood unsuitable as a tone wood.


I'm sorry but at this point I've heard too many really great sounding electrics with basswood bodies (including one I own myself) to really consider that comment as having much truth at all. At best this comment seems more subject to issues such as personal taste and preconceptions than it is about any genuine fact.

In other words; horse feathers.

Quote:
That's why you'll never see a fine acoustic instrument such as a violin, cello, or dreadnaught guitar with a basswood body.

Arjay



Your argument is flawed in that you're trying to use the bitterness of apples to invalidate the sweetness of oranges . You're talking about two VERY different things there...when it comes to acoustic instruments such as violins, cellos and even acoustic guitars, there are other factors that have to be considered beyond the rather subjective nature of the perceived tonal characteristics of a given species of wood.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:34 am
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Considering the direction this topic has turned with all this "scientific analysis", I have an extra $.02 I have to throw in here...

While I'll be the first to admit that I truly love science, I also have to wonder exactly what the point is of such intense analysis of this issue...after all, I think the general consensus is that yes, there is a difference (although I'll address the significance of that difference in just a bit here). That said however, like many folks here I'm sure, I don't buy a guitar based on what some audio analysis or some scientific testing shows and I certainly try to avoid preconceptions of what others may think. Very simply I buy a guitar based on how it feels in -my- hands and how it sounds to -my- ears (along with how much I feel I can change that sound if need be, LOL!).

Ok...not even considering other rather relevant issues, including pickups and amps, personal choice, feel and aesthetic considerations and putting the almighty preconceptions on the shelf for a moment, let's consider this; if you were to take two otherwise absolutely identical guitars, one with a rosewood fretboard and one with a maple fretboard (or even better, -1- guitar where you could simply swap out the fretboard) and you were to play these two guitars side by side WHILE BLIND FOLDED, would the difference in sound be significant at all? Would your average player really even be able to tell the difference? Considering the subjective nature of personal taste, does this difference even matter? Yes, there is a difference...obviously some kind of frequency analysis is likely to prove this...but can most people REALLY hear it? Seriously...people can do scientific tests all day long, but what's the point if my dog is really the only one who can actually hear that difference?

To use an analogy here, let's consider a visual reference regarding perception. I can look at the color "blue" and I -know- that it's a very different color than "red". There is a SIGNIFICANT perceivable difference. That's not to say that blue is "better" than red (or vice-versa), they're just different and that difference is easily perceptible. When it comes to the difference between a rosewood vs. maple fretboard on an electric guitar however, again with all other things being absolutely equal, at best it seems more like we're talking about the difference between a "maroon" shade of red and "burgundy" or "sangria" red. They -are- different shades of red, however that difference is considerably less dramatic. In other words, yes, there IS a difference, but for the most part that difference really is NOT that significant on it's own...let alone significant enough to really warrant a 4 page debate on the issue. LOL!!!

If one has to resort to audio analysis or scientific testing to decisively proove there is some kind of difference, then this tells me that wow...it's just not THAT big a deal at all.

It seems to me that on an electric guitar, any difference in tone between these two woods is likely to be rather subtle at best and when you factor in other relevant issues that WILL affect tone, including pickups and amp or even environmental issues such as "the room", not to mention personal preference issues such as feel and aesthetics, any tonal variations between rosewood and maple seem absolutely trivial.

To me the bottom line is simply this; some people like Fords, some like Chevys (I drive a Plymouth). Some folks like Strats, some like Les Pauls. Some folks prefer rosewood, some like maple.

So?

Again, just an extra $.02.......


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:56 am
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But then if we didn't ponder different topics on a forum what would be the point of a forum? :wink:

I have found the whole discussion very interesting and enlightening.

I'll agree that I still don't know if, in a blind test, one could tell the difference between a Rosewood neck or a Maple neck. I think that it might well be possible and, assuming it were, as the Rosewood would need to sound (even slightly) different it would either be brighter or darker so 50/50 chance it could be darker.

It has been equally interesting that, despite perceived knowledge, in 4 pages, we haven't arrived at a definitive answer (but have turned over a few stones in the process).

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:21 am
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I believe I'm to blame for all these pages. Anyway I have a strat with a rosewood fretboard that at one point was insanely bright. I'm to blame for that though. I raised the bridge and neck pickups and had the low E side closer to the strings than the high E side. Which isn't something you normally see everyday. It made a huge difference in the tone. It went from a nice beautiful dark to an unnatural bright. I have lowered the pickups a bit since so it's not super bright anymore but I did keep the low E side higher. Otherwise it won't work with my tube amp and personally I think it sounds better that way.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:24 am
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This helped explain a little bit of it to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAxvKw-wg-Y

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:41 am
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And just when the debate seemed to enlighten...

Enter Granadillo and Obeche...

Discuss...

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:50 pm
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This video is a bit old, but a good experiment.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:44 pm
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It's all in the ears :D


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