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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:25 pm
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Inferior in the visual sense. It is not even in coloring, striations and lighter grain patterns, mottled or zebra like... If you check you'll find that often, Indian Rosewood is stained to emit a more consistent look with Ebony ( which I prefer )

But Hey I have both Maple and Rosewood.
Actually just played a Rosewood necked Stratocvaster at GC the other day, loved the way the neck felt but the sunburst body clashed horribly...

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:30 pm
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Much has been said about the technicalities of rosewood so I'll leave that to others.

I've had 1960s 6 strings with nylon and wire (one with rosewood and one without), a 70s 12 string with rosewood, and, as noted elsewhere, I have played both a 1962 Strat with rosewood, and I have owned 2 modern same model Strats, one with rosewood and one presently with maple.

Hard to compare, if not impossible. They all had different characteristics, obviously. Seems to me the rosewood Strat was more mellow; but, maybe I was just whipped into believing that, or my setup was a variable. I honestly don't know.

I must say that the popular rosewoods of yesteryear IMO are simply different breeds. My recollection, subject to argument, because I can't look at each side by side, is that grain and pores are distinctly different amongst the branded rosewoods in question (maybe one of you could welcomely verify or denounce this)? This could factor in to feel, and whatever your theory of sound. I also remember that the old Strats rosewood had extra pizzazz or, maybe, the cause for admiration was that I also remember when natural fretboards were prevalent. That preferential treatment may explain one reason why South American rosewood became unattainable. I'm not so sure today's rosewood would meet that demand. Maybe it would. One thing for sure, is that you can get rosewood fretboards with an economy guitar. No big deal right? It'll take more than that fretboard to give the mojo. Perhaps, some of this rosewood is used elsewhere? :wink:

If an accurate comparison is possible one could debate which would be more accurate. Similar acoustic guitars with rosewood versus maple fretboards, or similar electrics. I for one am not going to get on that train. :D

For now, rosewood or maple, I'll just have to trust my senses . . . unless I can tweak the rosewood or maple. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:06 pm
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All other factors considered, the only reason that I choose Rosewood or Maple for the neck is the look. I mostly prefer the look of a Maple fretboard, but there are some guitars that just look better with Rosewood, mostly determined by the color of the guitar body. A classic look is a 3-tone sunburst with a Rosewood fretboard, it just doesn't look right to me with a Maple board. Olympic White with Rosewood is also great looking, although Olympic White with Maple is also cool (I have both). 8)

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:00 am
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I can appreciate that much is subjective, but the theoretical points made do suggest that that there must be a tone difference between solid maple necks and composite necks.

It would be rather nice to see a back to back test of two otherwise identical guitars. Perhaps something for "Chappers" and "The Captain" - ducks behind sofa to avoid tirade of abuse. I quite enjoy their videos in the same way I enjoyed UK Top Gear.

I would like to like rosewood necks, and agree that aesthetically they are better with certain colour bodies/scratch plates, but can't. I perceive them as notchy. This is daft as (as I observed earlier) with my playing there is almost no contact between string and fret board so the neck material cant make it notchier, faster, slicker or anything else - but I had a rosewood neck guitar which was notchy (probably due to rough frets) and, as a result, can't convince myself that all rosewood necks aren't.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:07 am
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Notchy?

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:25 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Someone posted a chart in another thread here, from an acoustic guitar maker, showing some sort of frequency responses for various woods. IIRC, the rosewood showed a broader frequency response than did maple. This broader range, covering more frequencies, is likely perceived as a "darker/warmer" tone as compared to the maple which had a more narrow frequency response more centered in mid to higher frequencies.

Interesting find there shimmilou, makes sense.

In a buzz of inspiration, :roll: I've completed more insane tests in the Black Coat Lab, to finally verify some of the mojo of resonance and frequencies. :shock:
If someone was mad enough to have done something similar, I couldn't find it.

I have the results here.

A Stradivarius violin sounds loud, meaty and balanced (unplugged), because he sold his soul :twisted: to hit on the combo of build and materials for their greater sympathetic resonance within the frequency range required of the instrument.

The Stratocaster has it's own qualities, with resonant materials, rosewood, maple, steel, bone, and... plastic.

But plastic guards don't resonate too well. The strange conflict :?

Reasons like EVH and others screw mount their pickups into the body wood, is for optimising what the pickup - picks up: a combo of elecro-magnetic resonance, and body materials resonance. eg. more sustain and body tone, from sympathetic body resonance.
:idea: If you have your guitars in floor stands, swipe all the strings and feel the stand, vibrating right :?:

Testing Method

* Guards were removed from the guitar.
* Guards were suspended by fine nylon thread through 2 forward bout screw holes.
* The guard is set into vibration using a gentle tap from a Timpani Mallet.
* Recorded using a Rhodes NTA-2 Condenser microphone at 3 inches distance.
* Measured using NuGen Frquency Spectrum Visualiser.

Test Results. (also see frequency spectrum analyser graphs below)

The Stratocaster Plastic pickguard resonant frequencies are predominantly:
100% equally spread between 0hz to 180Hz
Hit gently with the Timpani Mallet while freely suspended, a 'blap' sound sustains for aprox 0.7 seconds
(this also could only be the sound of the Mallet hitting the plastic, like blap!)

The Stratocaster Stainless Steel pickguard resonant frequencies are predominantly:
60% around 80Hz
15% near 170Hz
10% near 290Hz
15% near 375Hz
Hit gently with the Timpani Mallet while freely suspended, a deep bell like sound sustains for 21 seconds.

The Telecaster Stainless Steel pickguard resonant frequencies are predominantly:
50% around 80Hz
20% near 140Hz
20% near 370Hz
10% near 440Hz
Hit gently with the Timpani Mallet while freely suspended, a deep bell like sound sustains for 20 seconds.

To give you an idea of the sound depth of these predominant frequencies, guitar string chart is below.

STRING TUNINGS for above frequency comparisons:

E2 —low——6th——— 82.41 Hz
A2 ————- 5th——— 110 Hz
D3 ————-4th——— 146.83 Hz
G3 ————-3rd——— 195.99 Hz
B3 ————-2nd——— 246.94 Hz
E4 —hi——- 1st——— 329.63Hz

But there are far more overtones going on, as you can see by the comparison photos using the frequency spectrum analyzer.

Plastic Pickguard Test

Image

Stainless Steel Stratocaster Pickguard Test

Image

Stainless Steel Telecaster Pickguard Test

Image

There are no unwanted crazy high frequencies here.
The graph drops off at highest reading near 1,200Hz, or note D6 (1174.66Hz) on 22nd fret. Cool. All the fretboard covered!
A stainless steel pickguard is much more capable of the right sympathetic resonances. Could that be why the bridge and strings are steel?

Consider the guard is screwed firmly onto a large expanse of resonant wood by 11 screws, the pickups screw right into the guard of course, now it makes more sense.
Stainless steel also reduces electro noise too, like a big noise shield.

Like the strings are steel, bridge is metal, steel tremolo sustain block, now steel guard... as I understand, that's like a marriage that's meant to happen.

Have I messed up my classic Strat & Tele tones by introducing more metal :?:
Not from what I hear. More like enhanced the original character.
* It's important that this is a non-magnetic stainless steel, so the regular electromagnetic fields at work are not interfered or effected.

TESTING SUMMARY:

Method of identifying the prime resonant frequencies of a stainless steel and plastic Stratocaster pickguard.

There was no need to feed any frequencies into the guards in order to find it's resonant peaks, as it is capable of resonating physically, when suspended and tapped.
From one tap, the steel resonance lasts for on average 21 seconds. Plastic for aprox 0.7 seconds.

Results were consistent over 8 separate measurements.

Predominately the steel guards sounds like a deeper pitched, long resonant bell tone.
I will return soon with a video, so you can hear for yourself.

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Last edited by Johnny Soniq on Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:56 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:44 am
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Not sure what to think of the last re-post. :shock:

(1) You can analyze this to the equivalence of defining PI ..

(2) You cannot compare resonant frequencies of an acoustic instrument versus an electric instrument.
The former produces sound in a mechanical mode whereas the latter is an electromagnetic mode. Very different principles apply.

(3) As for the Stradivarius.. He did not sell his soul to the devil, the author is mistaking Stradivarius for Paganini. Neither did Nicolo sell his soul to the devil ( That's if one even believes such nonsense ) What is truth is that Paganini was a prodigy, not only on the Violin but also on the Chitarra ( spanish guitar ). He actually used his notoriety and played it up. Think of Yingwie Malmsteen 200 years ago and you have a 19th century wunderkind who basically was a rock star of his time :lol: ...

(4) Violins, acoustic guitars rely on a soundbox to transmit sound, actually transform a strings oscillation to an audible note ( frequency ) The oscillating action of the string creates a disturbance ( vibration ) that in turn reflects into the top and back of the acoustic guitar. The top and back are forced to move outward and inward from the vibrations. This in turn affects the air inside the acoustical box to be pushed out the sound hole which we can detect as an audible frequency... The violin is somewhat on the same principle but with variations since the actual machine is much smaller.

(5) Electric guitar relies on the string oscillating within an electromagnetic field. As a string moves ( oscillates ) it breaks up the electromagnetic field, the pole pieces read that as an interference and the signal is sent as an electric current to the amp which ironically transforms that signal into an audible frequency thru the speaker ( very much like the acoustic sound box.. )

(4) and (5) is a simplification but that is the general theme. The pick guard analysis is well .... pups are basically suspended and if you are using surgical tubing instead of springs for the screw adjustments there is an additional dampening factor.
Oh but then if the Strat. body is a swimming pool route versus the conventional SSS or HSH or HSS well then we have even more facors to take into consideration...

Oh Hell !!! ( Oopps bad word :oops: ) This is Spinal Tap and just turn it up to 11 ..... :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:36 am
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I have to say I do find the stainless steel pick guard graphs a bit confusing.

The differences, based on the graphs, seem so significant that one would assume, the guitar sounds completely different. I don't want my guitar to sound completely different.

As we have (I think) accepted; the harmonic system of the guitar (the way it maintains, or changes, the way the strings oscillate) is based on the complete build up of the guitar. A Stainless steel pick guard will certainly influence this, as does any other change.

However, the stainless steel plate might also influence the electromagnetic fields at work in a different way to that of a plastic pick guard perhaps? Being something of a traditionalist this isn't something I would consider desirable personally ....but if it works for you.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:07 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Notchy?


Yeh notchy? :)


As in, when bending, the strings don't bend smoothly. They, bend, catch, bend a bit more, catch, bend some more.. Notchy.



Maple necks always seem super smooth on the surface. Rosewood necks can have a more pronounced grain fissuring.

Perhaps there is a difference in feel as, while the string may not touch the fret board, the flesh of your finger tip either side of the string may brush it. This ignoring full on death grip chords up by the nut - but then you probably aren't going for massive bends up by the nut.

But, this small difference shouldn't be the large difference that my mind has come to consider it as such ... I think it is because my rosewood neck guitar had rough(er) frets. But I can't move the perception.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:42 am
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John Sims wrote:
I have to say I do find the stainless steel pick guard graphs a bit confusing.

The differences, based on the graphs, seem so significant that one would assume, the guitar sounds completely different. I don't want my guitar to sound completely different.

As we have (I think) accepted; the harmonic system of the guitar's tone (the way it maintains, or changes, the way the strings oscillate) is based on the complete build up of the guitar. A Stainless steel pick guard will certainly influence this, as does any other change.

However, the stainless steel plate might also influence the electromagnetic fields at work in a different way to that of a plastic pick guard perhaps? Being something of a traditionalist this isn't something I would consider desirable personally ....but if it works for you.


I see how this could be misleading, and a little controversial to traditionalists.
But as I mentioned, the sweet tonal characteristics of the Strat remain the same and unaffected, and there is minimal noticeable difference in my tests between a plastic or stainless steel guard on the guitar. Just a little more sustain, note clarity and less noise.

It's also critical that the stainless steel guard be a non-magnetic steel, which it is.
Being non-magnetic, it has no effect on the internal electromagnetic fields of the pickups, and is only actively reducing AC 60 cycle hum and electromagnetic interference, exactly the same way as the thin aluminium noise shield commonly applied to the underside of a pickguard or inside the cavities, but more effectively as the stainless steel is thicker (1mm).

The graphs are the result of testing the pickguards off the guitar, and effectively show the difference of sustain and resonance between the 2 materials, plastic and stainless steel, Strat and Tele sizes guards.

Hope that helps.
Seriously I've been playing a long time and am a bit of a tone freak, with too many and not enough guitars, as most of us here lol, and if there was any hint of an effect in a negative way, I wouldn't attempt to waste my time saying anything about it...and take up modding saxophones instead, which would be a scream... It's the small end they blow into, right :)

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:18 pm
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This thread is getting heavy. I wonder if someone made a guitar with a rosewood neck and maple fret board, if the world would explode and get sucked into the vortex of a black whole? That would be really dark!

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:19 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
Well, the pups do act somewhat like a microphone picking up vibrations as well as the strings passing through the magnetic field, stronger or weaker depending on the type of pups. Crank up the amp and guitar, get close to the pups and yell into one, or wrap on the body of the guitar with your knuckles, both sounds can be heard through the amp (again, depending on the pups). :idea:

But yes, the affect that the wood has is mostly on the string vibration, sustain, harmonic overtones, etc.


I am also in the camp that the wood used has very little (if any) affect on a solid body guitar's tone. For one thing, by its very design, the body is not intended to be its sound source (vs. the sound board of an acoustic or even a piano where the board is intended to move air). It's more of a structural component. But having said that, once the magnetic field has been disturbed by the movement of the strings and the pickups become energized, they do behave similarly to microphones and pick up acoustic events that occur within the context of the string with negligible impact from the body or neck woods. If the wood were all that important to tone, then a whole lot of Strats (especially those with a universal route) would sound like plastic because of the pick guards.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:58 pm
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I think we all agree that PUPs have the most notable impact on the audio performance of a Strat.

However, considering the PUP is picking up fluctuations in a magnetic field, if you can alter the nature of those fluctuations, this must also change the sound of the guitar.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:36 pm
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nyquilcoma wrote:
"experts" (...) "prove" "scientific"

So, the fact that you disagree justifies the "ironic" quotation marks? (As in: let's try to keep this civilized.)

nyquilcoma wrote:
Maybe it's unscientific, but I find (...) seem to (...) I find it harder (...) I prefer (...) seem to (...)

On this I totally agree. Players have their personal preferences, and that makes a difference - you feel comfortable with some combination, the end result is better.[/quote]

Maybe I didn't express myself as clearly as I could have, and I was truly not trying to come off as either "hipster ironic" or uncivil (I've gotten too old to care about being hip anymore). Likewise, I certainly meant no offense to anyone.
My point was that despite the fact that there are seemingly no scientifically measurable differences between "tone woods" (quotation marks, again) or any other building materials used in the construction of solid body electric guitars, many players and listeners believe they can discern a difference. Whether this difference is real, or only perceived in the ears of said players and listeners, becomes a moot point. If such a real or perceived difference did not exist, then this topic would not continue to be argued, ad infinitum.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:07 pm
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John Sims wrote:
... the PUP is picking up fluctuations in a magnetic field, if you can alter the nature of those fluctuations, this must also change the sound of the guitar.

Thank you John.
You appear to have a nack for summing up a complicated concept and dropping it into a nutshell.
And you're exactly right.


Tonewoods work not because they have any affect on the pickups but because they affect the vibration of the strings which is where tone starts. Change the vibrational characteristics of the strings and the pickups will pick up that difference and send the appropriate signal. It makes perfect sense. You can hear the difference when you pluck the strings with fingers versus a plectrum. Clearly the pickups are sensing the changed vibrational character of the strings due to a changing right hand technique so they do sense these kinds of differences and send them down the line. The pups only people seem to think that the strings are the strings are the strings and they are somehow immutable and even God himself will have no affect on the tone. The strings are not immutable and they are in fact affected by wood and other variables and the pickups pick up whatever the strings give them to pick up. If it were not so, how in the world could hands make a difference? Every player would sound the same.

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