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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:43 pm
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What happens is the frequency from the string vibrating travels through the body and neck. As it travels through, the wood dampens certain frequencies and aren't as strongly picked up by the pickups. A rosewood fretboard has a different density than a maple fret board, which means it will absorb different frequencies. This allows rosewood to contribute to a darker tone than a maple fretboard.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:23 am
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arebel wrote:
What happens is the frequency from the string vibrating travels through the body and neck. As it travels through, the wood dampens certain frequencies and aren't as strongly picked up by the pickups. A rosewood fretboard has a different density than a maple fret board, which means it will absorb different frequencies. This allows rosewood to contribute to a darker tone than a maple fretboard.


Simple, concise and makes sense to me. Thank you arebel.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:36 am
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arebel wrote:
A rosewood fretboard has a different density than a maple fret board, which means it will absorb different frequencies. This allows rosewood to contribute to a darker tone than a maple fretboard.


Hmm...

Rosewood, Bolivian (average) 0.82 (1000 kg/m3) (Note: Not in use; CITES endangered list)
Rosewood, East Indian: 0.7-0.90 (1000 kg/m3)
Rosewood, Indian: 0.77-0.93 (1000 kg/m3)
Maple: 0.6-0.75 (1000 kg/m3)
Note1: Density variations between pieces cut from the same tree are often more than ±15% (these, of course, depend on the wood species.
Note2: Your typical Strat fretboard is considerably under 0,000125 m3.

So, a fretboard made of East Indian rosewood (this particular fretboard piece happens to be on the low end of the density scale; say 720 kg/m3), makes a Strat sound dark,
but if we switch to a maple fretboard (this particular fretboard piece happens to be on the high end of the density scale, say 720 kg/m3) the guitar is now bright?


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:19 am
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John Sims wrote:
arebel wrote:
What happens is the frequency from the string vibrating travels through the body and neck. As it travels through, the wood dampens certain frequencies and aren't as strongly picked up by the pickups. A rosewood fretboard has a different density than a maple fret board, which means it will absorb different frequencies. This allows rosewood to contribute to a darker tone than a maple fretboard.


Simple, concise and makes sense to me. Thank you arebel.

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Somebody gets it!

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:29 am
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Darker tones are bad mmm...OK?

Every time I touch my rosewood Strat... I turn bad.
Blondie, she summons the Diablo, creeping up behind me.
Oblivious, I cannot stop the frenzy of distortion, faster, madder, the song makes itself from the other side of nowhere.
My trance turning up everything to 11, tubes blue teeth bite through strings possessed, the air parts for darkness, into the light.

Darker! LOUDER!! I find her...

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:52 am
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Someone posted a chart in another thread here, from an acoustic guitar maker, showing some sort of frequency responses for various woods. IIRC, the rosewood showed a broader frequency response than did maple. This broader range, covering more frequencies, is likely perceived as a "darker/warmer" tone as compared to the maple which had a more narrow frequency response more centered in mid to higher frequencies.

I realize that an electric solid body guitar will not respond to various woods as much as an acoustic, but the affect is still there in the electric, albeit more subtle.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:46 am
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arebel wrote:
As it travels through, the wood dampens certain frequencies and aren't as strongly picked up by the pickups.

How do the pickups, pick up frequencies from the wood?
Now if you said, different woods cause the strings to vibrate differently, you might have an angle to pursue.
Any sound emanating from the wood will be acoustical only and most likely overpowered by an amp.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:01 am
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Drew365 wrote:
arebel wrote:
As it travels through, the wood dampens certain frequencies and aren't as strongly picked up by the pickups.

How do the pickups, pick up frequencies from the wood?
Now if you said, different woods cause the strings to vibrate differently, you might have an angle to pursue.
Any sound emanating from the wood will be acoustical only and most likely overpowered by an amp.


If I understand arabel correctly, it doesn't.

The guitar body/neck, in effect acts as a damper to different frequencies by absorbing them...which, I think, is what you said in that the strings vibrate differently.

Therefore a "dark" guitar would be such because the guitar is absorbing the highs not because it is enhancing the lows.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:42 pm
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Well, the pups do act somewhat like a microphone picking up vibrations as well as the strings passing through the magnetic field, stronger or weaker depending on the type of pups. Crank up the amp and guitar, get close to the pups and yell into one, or wrap on the body of the guitar with your knuckles, both sounds can be heard through the amp (again, depending on the pups). :idea:

But yes, the affect that the wood has is mostly on the string vibration, sustain, harmonic overtones, etc.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:55 pm
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You don't want your pickups to be "microphonic" but, they are transducers like a microphone.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:07 am
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I'll add...

Agathis is of the pinus family ( pine ) from Australia, New Zealand, Papua, New Guinea... There are actually about 100 species of pine, some more suited to instrument construction than others. For example I have seen the Knotty Pines bodies which I wouldn't want. Simply because it really is an inferior wood grade. Knots are actually branches growing out perpendicular to the grain. That eventually will result in some degrees of wood separation over time. In wood working knotty pine is left to framing and lower line furniture construction.
I will agree that the knot effect is dramatically visual but in all it is a pain to work and finish and ...

Basswood is rather soft, has minimal resilience to tooling and tends to be susceptible to decay and insect damage. Insects love soft chewy wood. But it is inexpensive and abundant.

On the neck Maple versus Rosewood. A string vibrates from bridge to nut and the vibrations resemble sine waves which travel from bridge to nut and vice versa.
Rose wood has a damping effect on those vibrations. Think of the nut inset into the neck.
On a one piece Maple the nut cavity is routed out and the nut is fitted in. Solid bound with only a minimal interruption in the underneath the nut in the glue joint ( usually just a couple drops not even a continuous film.
A slab neck will also be different as the fingerboard is a separate piece of Maple glued on.
In the case of the Rosewood, ( Rosewood is softer than maple ) glued onto Maple, the nut is held into a rosewood sandwich thus further dampening vibrations.
BTW that film of glue which binds Maple to Maple or Maple to Rosewood will also act as a damper.

You can think of a pair of skis which will often ( or did ) have a laminate of rubber to dampen the vibration characteristics so that at speed the ski would be less prone to chattering...

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:39 am
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I'm no expert, nor am I an electronics or audio engineer.
I have seen the demonstrations that "prove" through the use of frequency response, decibel meters, and sine wave measuring equipment that the type of woods used in the construction of solid body electric guitars has no influence on tone, sustain, or volume that can be scientifically measured.
These "experts" claim any perceived differences are due solely to the electronic components-pickups, wiring configurations, tone/volume control parameters, the placement of capacitors and resistors, etc., along with scale length, string brand/gauge, nut and bridge materials.
They go ahead to "prove" their claims by A/B-ing side by side the same model guitar in ash/alder/maple/poplar/basswood, etc., only using the exact same pickups, wiring, hardware, string types, et al. switched out for each demo. Usually, the demonstration is brought home by using bodies made of Lucite (ala Dan Armstrong), metal, glass, whatever. The "scientific" results vary not a whit when measured. Hmmm,....
So what?
Maybe it's unscientific, but I find Maple fingerboards generally sound brighter, more jangly, and seem to offer less sustain; they also seem to play faster, feel slicker and more slippery, and I find it harder to really dig in for bends or vibrato.
I prefer Rosewood fingerboards-they're usually warmer, more defined, and notes seem to ring longer; they also seem to offer more control, making it easier for me to keep a firm hold on the strings, without feeling like I'm slipping and sliding around the neck.
A scientific evaluation? Absolutely not. But, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your Philosophy..."-with apologies to the Bard.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:53 am
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John Sims wrote:
I'm not trying to start an argument

I just knew that wish would be in vain.

53magnatone wrote:
Rosewood is softer than maple

Nope, see the density chart above. Or if you want Janka numbers, maple varies from ~1000 to ~1450, rosewood from ~1800 to ~2800.
BTW, basswood is very similar to poplar - and both have been used in cheap mass product low class as well as expensive hand made high end guitars...

nyquilcoma wrote:
"experts" (...) "prove" "scientific"

So, the fact that you disagree justifies the "ironic" quotation marks? (As in: let's try to keep this civilized.)

nyquilcoma wrote:
Maybe it's unscientific, but I find (...) seem to (...) I find it harder (...) I prefer (...) seem to (...)

On this I totally agree. Players have their personal preferences, and that makes a difference - you feel comfortable with some combination, the end result is better.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:57 am
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jmattis wrote:
John Sims wrote:
I'm not trying to start an argument

I just knew that wish would be in vain.

53magnatone wrote:
Rosewood is softer than maple

Nope, see the density chart above. Or if you want Janka numbers, maple varies from ~1000 to ~1450, rosewood from ~1800 to ~2800.
BTW, basswood is very similar to poplar - and both have been used in cheap mass product low class as well as expensive hand made high end guitars...


An argument are differing viewpoints discussing a subject from separate perspectives based on factual ( hopefully ) precedents.

Maple is available in 35+ genus, some are much denser than Rosewood. A curly eyed piece of Maple or figured maple will be denser than the Rosewood as we are concerned with today..
Just from the density chart figures the numbers are just about on the same plane. Although Rosewood has a high content of minerals ( Calcareous deposits ). It is an inferior Rosewood to what was once used but is now on the endangered list....

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:21 am
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Nope. The density charts show that the softer rosewoods and harder maples can have the same density. On (Janka scale) hardness, birdseye maple (1450) is among those hardest maples, but below even the softest (1540, Nicaraguan) rosewoods. That's a factual predecent.

On that "inferior" part, a good piece of Indian or East Indian rosewood is quite comparable to Bolivian (now endangered) rosewood. Of course, some manufacturers call anything 'rosewood', as long as it's about the right shade of brown. That's IMHO.
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