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Post subject: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:55 am
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I'm not a fan of rosewood necks myself, as I don't like the feel of them, although aesthetically they can be very appealing.

I am interested by the often quoted "fact" that they sound darker and wonder how this can be. The string is vibrating between the fret and the bridge, it doesn't touch the fretboard aside where you may be pressing the string against the neck behind the fret (if you fret that hard).

I can appreciate that the fretboard material can change the harmonic frequency of the neck its self. Maple necks are generally one piece of timber where as a maple neck with a rosewood fret board is laminated and, as such, wouldn't perhaps have the clarity of harmonic associated with one material.

I can also appreciate that in touching the string against the fret board, if that fret board is softer, or harder, the control of that pressure will potentially vary ... but then fingertips aren't exactly hard so is this relevant?

I'm not trying to start an argument, and don't have any real point to make, I am just interested in what others might think. What is the science behind the comment and is it even correct or just one of those things that is said by so many people that we all now believe it to be true?

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:05 am
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John Sims wrote:
...... touching the string against the fret board, if that fret board is softer, or harder, the control of that pressure will potentially vary ... but then fingertips aren't exactly hard so is this relevant?....


I have taken this to an extreme and considered two fret boards, one made of glass and one made of sponge cake (I said it was extreme). Based on this, even though your finger is rubbery there is obviously a great deal of difference in the two where the string contacts to neck.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:10 am
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John Sims wrote:
John Sims wrote:
...... touching the string against the fret board, if that fret board is softer, or harder, the control of that pressure will potentially vary ... but then fingertips aren't exactly hard so is this relevant?....


I have taken this to an extreme and considered two fret boards, one made of glass and one made of sponge cake (I said it was extreme). Based on this, even though your finger is rubbery there is obviously a great deal of difference in the two where the string contacts to neck.


OK, so that is all irrelevant.

I have just had a good look at my standard fret guitar with 008's and, at no time, do the strings touch the fret board, perhaps with the exception of the GBE strings on the first three frets. So the above consideration is pretty much moot.

Perhaps it is to do with how the fretboard holds the fret wire? If the fretboard was made of glass the frets would be completely rigid. If the fretboard was made of sponge cake they would be very soft in their location.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:24 am
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A guitar being a resonant system, different parts can affect the resonance of the system, some more than others, and the strings don't need to "touch" all parts for the vibrations to travel through the entire system.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:07 am
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shimmilou wrote:
A guitar being a resonant system, different parts can affect the resonance of the system, some more than others, and the strings don't need to "touch" all parts for the vibrations to travel through the entire system.


Indeed. I thought it would be interesting to consider how these changes might manifest themselves, and why, rather than - They just do.

I appreciate it is one aspect of a system considered in isolation but then that one change is reputed to have a notable change in the overall character of the system. Is it purely because it alters the harmonic performance of the neck, as part of the system, or are there other factors involved?

The neck will certainly resonate differently particularly as it has become an unbalanced construction. The neck will, as such, have induced stresses because of the two timbers in an uneven, unbalanced, laminate. With no strings, or truss rod, the neck would potentially warp of its own accord. This would be less the case with a single piece of timber.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:00 am
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One thing to ponder is if the statement actually is true.
Do really all rosewood fretboard Strats sound dark and mellow, and all maple fretboard Strats bright and edgy...
And ebony fretboards, then..?

BTW, Fender maple necks aren't exactly "one piece timber". Neck piece + skunk stripe piece... :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:18 am
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Lots of variables, even within the same type of wood, and most are subtle differences.

So, no, not all.........

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:30 am
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This is just my own $.02 for what it's worth...

The two main reasons I prefer maple fretboards on my Strats are feel and aesthetics...I like the way the maple looks. As far as feel goes, truth be told I think ebony is probably my favorite...I have a Seagull acoustic with an ebony fretboard and man...just feels like silk under my fingers. I do like a GOOD rosewood on certain guitars, particularly acoustics, but there seem to be a lot of rosewood fretboards out there today that just don't have the feel that many vintage instruments do, although I'm not really sure if this is due to the quality of the wood or simply the age of the instrument...it's probably a bit of both. That said however, there is something about a Strat that to me just screams maple...I'm sure it's nothing more than the reason why some folks like the color red and some like blue, but 9 of my 10 Strats all have maple. The two other Strats I had with Rosewood have both been sold (traded) because I really didn't care for the feel of the fretboards on either.

Now you'll notice I didn't say a word about the tone there... Obviously the quality of sound regarding "tone woods" has been a long debated subject. In this instance I do have to separate acoustics from electrics in that I truly feel the woods used in an acoustic instrument are FAR more important than an electric. Again referring to my Seagull as an example, that cedar body just sounds incredible...far better to my ears than instruments costing several times the price (such as Martin's or Taylors). Like my electrics I will admit to a certain affection for many of the mid-range acoustics out there...I do like many of the Alvarez acoustics I've played over the years and I absolutely love Ovations (particularly for stage use), but in all honestly, my Seagull S6 is singularly the best sounding acoustic I've ever played. Electrics on the other hand, in my mind are a very different beastie...

When it comes to electrics, I don't think it's too far fetched to say that the vast majority of your tone comes from the pickups and the amp (barring the use of effects of course). Many people (including myself) have said it - plug a cheap guitar into a decent amp and chances are you're going to get a pretty good sound, but plug a really great guitar into a cheap little practice amp and it's gonna sound like crap. For myself at least, this alone has always called into question the degree of how much the wood contributes to the actual tone, body, neck and fretboard. After all, slap a different set of pickups in an electric and you have a "different tone". Certainly we've seen electric instruments in recent years that use some rather exotic woods such as bubinga and zebra and in recent years I've seen some higher end instruments using basswood (such as the EVH models and some of the old Parkers). On the rare occasion I've even seen a few instruments made from woods such oak/red oak...something most folks don't consider tone wood at all. I've also seen people making guitars and basses from old cigar boxes and I even read an article recently where someone used old pallets to build an acoustic! In the case of electrics, more than anything I think it's more a matter of perception vs. preconception...someone is told that such and such wood produces such and such sound/tone, so that's what they think they hear. In the case of fretboards, I'm sure there -IS- a difference (regarding tone), however the significance of that difference is another thing entirely.

Certainly here in the world of Fender, a lot of folks get really wound up about alder and ash as being some kind of superior tone wood and equally a lot of folks seem to crack on basswood and agathis as somehow being inferior, but I think if someone had of asked Leo Fender back in the day, "tone"...as far as the wood goes...was probably way down on his priority list. If I remember correctly, the main reason he used ash in those early Tele's (Broadcasters) was because it was a.) fairly easy to machine b.) it looked nice and c.) it was affordable (same goes for the later use of alder). I remember reading the Leo and George Fullerton had originally tried to use pine as it was most plentiful, but found it to be too soft...they didn't think it would be durable enough for a "working musician". As I recall, their priorities were to create an guitar that didn't feedback (the way traditional instruments did at that time) and they wanted to build something that was easily repairable...back then many musicians could only afford -1- guitar and if something happened to it, it usually had to be sent back to the factory for repair, leaving the musician without his instrument (and out of work) until the guitar was sent back. In fact I read somewhere that the reason they used maple for the necks was because they were originally hoping to avoid the need for a truss rod...didn't really have much to do with tone at all.

Sure...today a lot of folks think that a Strat with an alder body somehow sounds better (just as many Gibson fans think an LP should be made of mahogany), but honestly I've got Strats made from poplar and one made of agathis...they all sound decent (after some pickup swaps that is, LOL). If anything, my '93 MIM Squier Series with it's basswood body probably has the best "vintage tone" of the lot...with the current setup of some GF pickups and a Mexican standard bridge (with a GF block), that sucker really screams "Surf's up!". She has the more contemporary feel of a mid-90's Fender Standard (which I love), but that particular guitar really does have the whole mid-60's sound going on (really fun guitar to play too!).

Anyways...to wrap that all up, I really think that when it comes to electrics at least, while any guitar is certainly the sum of it's parts, I think the quality of tone is really a subjective thing when it comes to the woods used. To me at least, any wood used for the fretboard would at best have a minimal contribution to the sound/tone...there's just FAR greater factors involved there. For the little bit of difference in tone that may exist there, I believe that "feel" is just much more important.


Again and as always, just my own opinions.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:50 am
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The only way to prove any difference in sound would be blind testing of a very large sample of listeners utilizing guitars and amps set up as precisely the same as could possibly be done. Otherwise, this is all in your heads ... rosewood looks darker and so it sounds darker. Ha ha.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:33 pm
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lomitus wrote:
This is just my own $.02 for what it's worth... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Again and as always, just my own opinions.


I always find your contributions interesting, but,... one would think you get paid by the word... :lol: :lol: :lol:

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:56 pm
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I feel they lack the "snap" of the maple fingerboard. This is not a bad thing. I like them both. the lack of brightness in the rosewood gives it a nice smooth tone. I would not call it flat out dark. I feel with age rosewood sounds even better. I can't prove it. It is just my opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:45 pm
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lomitus wrote:
This is just my own $.02 for what it's worth...
Anyways...to wrap that all up, I really think that when it comes to electrics at least, while any guitar is certainly the sum of it's parts, I think the quality of tone is really a subjective thing when it comes to the woods used.
Again and as always, just my own opinions.


Seriously, you nailed that fretboard to the wall with a bullseye haha.

I'm cool with a pickguard made of stainless steel that actually has sympathetic resonance with the rest of the guitar.
Strings are disposable steel that rusts right, and that lump of metal for your all important bridge?

A great guitar, the sum of it's best quality materials and workmanship.

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:34 pm
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What does dark sound like? Does it sound anything like crickets?
And, what about necks that play like butter? I've never played a butter guitar and I've always wondered about that one. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:12 am
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Where's the "Stone"?
I would have thought he'd literally JUMP at the chance to educate us all on how only the pickups can have any effect on the feel of a fretboard. What with wood being meaningless and all.

:wink: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Rosewood necks sound darker? How?
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:36 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Where's the "Stone"?
I would have thought he'd literally JUMP at the chance to educate us all on how only the pickups can have any effect on the feel of a fretboard. What with wood being meaningless and all.

:wink: :lol:


+1k !!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

cheers!

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