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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:18 pm
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Yikes...looks like we have some fender loyalists ( or employees ) here. And to the poster that said i would be a dick for putting a fender logo on another fender strat style aftermarket neck ...uh why ? Because i dont want to make fender extra money because they refuse to put ONE extra fret on a non classic/vintage guitar ? At least i wont be a sucker. And asking for one fret is not wanting 24 or more...im not a shred metal wanabe. And if one more fret is so bad why did they add one on some guitars in the first place ?

Its funny they call a certain strat a deluxe " player " ...have an ash body , noiseless pickups , 12" radius , all the beautiful trimmings- yet the ol' 21 fret job...

This isnt whining or a troll...to me its a reasonable request. Not even a request, fender will still get money from me either way. It just seems odd they would eliminate that fret from alot of their standard and deluxe guitars.

And for pups- seymour duncan has hot coil splitting single coils for the bridge that can be turned into true single coils with the volume pot switch.

And for people ragging on hard rock or metal ? Really ? Im not into the whole death metal or screamo thing these days , but what passes as rock today is a joke. Bunch of hipsters trying to be cool instead of breaking new ground. And blues is great, but are the local clubs not filled with this " dont spill your beer music " enough already ?

If there wasnt a metal or rock market at all Fender wouldnt have some of the guitars they have available.


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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:20 pm
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stratmangler wrote:
John Sims wrote:
Play solos so high that only dogs can hear them.


Nice one! :D

The only thing is, someone else got there first ....

Image


Oh the irony, now people will pile on because Uli used to play 70's strats with a 21 fret neck lol....but see what it did to him ? He wanted that fret so bad he added a million more.


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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:41 pm
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53magnatone wrote:
I'm done on this thread, it is resembling a Trollfest ..


You were right.

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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:11 pm
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Next Up...

Amps that go to '11'

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:08 pm
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Didnt notice right in front of my eyes the limited edition american standard stratocaster vintage white. If i can pull $1200 i might do it. Im amazed of how helpful people were here. Not even a fender rep chiming in to help. :roll:


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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:29 am
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lomitus wrote:

Between the comments about the extra fret, color and headstock decal, to me it simply sounds as though someone may have their priorities mixed up...if a person has trouble playing a guitar because it only has 21 frets instead of 22, it sounds like the problem may NOT be the guitar at all. Either way, if the OP isn't happy with the stock selection of Strats out there (both Fender and Squier), which as others have said is pretty vast and if the OP can't even find an instrument in the used/vintage market that tickles their fancy, then the options seem pretty clear - he (she) should probably either consider another brand (Jackson, Ibanez, etc), spending the money to order custom shop or simply building their own. Custom shop or a home build/mod are really the ONLY way to get EXACTLY what you want...and this way the only person the OP could blame for any lack of satisfaction would be him (her) self.

Again, just my own opinions.

Or switch to the accordion


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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:53 am
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57trouble wrote:
Yikes...looks like we have some fender loyalists ( or employees ) here.


Let me begin here by saying that I am NOT an employee of Fender and what's more is that after the many years I've been on this forum, I seriously doubt the majority of folks here are either. Personally, I'm a digital artist, photographer and graphic's designer here in Northern Ohio (I've never even worked for a Fender authorized retailer). And while I also happen to be a musician and more specifically one who appreciates Fender, I would by no means consider myself a loyalist either...yea, I like Strats (both Fender and Squier) and currently own 10 of them, however I also currently own instruments made by Kramer, Ibanez, Ovation, Seagull, Yamaha, Giannini and others...and of the 12 amps I currently own, only 2 of them are Fenders...in fact my main gigging amp is a Lab and my main practice amp is a Roland. In other words, my opinions are strictly my own and they are NOT based on any sense of "brand loyalty". What's more, they are opinions based on more than 30 years of stage and studio experience. Very simply, like many here I like many of the products produced under the brand name Fender, however that is NOT my exclusive motivation for posting on these forums.

That said, I have to seriously wonder...if you're so offended by "loyalists", why did you come to a FENDER forum? It seems to me there was no ethereal enigma connected with finding this forum...you came to Fender.com, you logged onto the Stratocasters forum under Fender Guitars, etc...not like anything here suggested this was "Joe's Guitar Talk" or anything of that nature. Logic should dictate that folks who hang out on the forums of a notably popular brand will likely have a predisposition to that brand.....



Quote:
And to the poster that said i would be a dick for putting a fender logo on another fender strat style aftermarket neck ...uh why ? Because i dont want to make fender extra money because they refuse to put ONE extra fret on a non classic/vintage guitar ? At least i wont be a sucker.


Gotta admit to more confusion here. While I will admit to having my own views regarding the use of a registered trademark (views that don't always agree with the consensus on this issue), I'm not sure I understand your logic here. On the one hand your comments seem to suggest that you have a problem with Fender as a company and/or their products (since you seem to repeatedly complain) and your previous comment outlined above certainly seems to suggest that you have a problem with people who you consider loyalists. If you dislike Fender THAT much, why on Earth would you want that logo on your guitar???



Quote:
And if one more fret is so bad why did they add one on some guitars in the first place ?



I can't say anyone here specifically said it was "bad" (although I haven't read all the posts completely). On the other hand, it's not really something that a lot of players really need either. It should be rather obvious that this is simply a "feature" offered on certain models. Again as myself and others have already pointed out, Fender is a large company...they generally make specific models of instruments (and amps, etc) based on popular demand. The fact that they do offer 22 fret instruments does acknowledge that portion of the market, however I would also reiterate that it's about a "market" and not the specific needs of one disgruntled twip.

I also feel compelled to reiterate my early comment in that if -1- fret is really THAT big a deal to you, then perhaps the problem isn't the guitar or even the brand.

Quote:
Its funny they call a certain strat a deluxe " player " ...have an ash body , noiseless pickups , 12" radius , all the beautiful trimmings- yet the ol' 21 fret job...


Seems to me that the name is quite appropriate. As others have already pointed out (including myself), a great many "players" seem to do just fine without that extra fret, so I don't see how the difference of an extra fret should have any influence on the name AT ALL. Or are you simply suggesting that those who use 21 fret instruments (or less) simply aren't "players"?? Me thinks that more than a few people may take offense to that......

Quote:
It just seems odd they would eliminate that fret from alot of their standard and deluxe guitars
.

Considering that a "standard" Strat is essentially based on the vintage concept and considering that 22 fret Strats didn't even hit the scene until the mid to late 1980's, I'm not sure how you describe this as the "elimination" of a fret. For MANY years, Strats only had 21 frets...from their inception in 1954 thru the early 80's (well over 25 years), Strats only had 21 frets. If I remember correctly, 22 fretters didn't come on the scene until the introduction of the MIJ "Contemporary Strats" in the mid 80's and they didn't make their way to MIA's until '87. They didn't "eliminate" a fret from certain models, they ADDED a fret to a few specific models.

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And for pups- seymour duncan has hot coil splitting single coils for the bridge that can be turned into true single coils with the volume pot switch.


While I'll be the first to admit that I prefer Duncan's over most stock Fender pickups, I can't help but feel this comment is nothing more than another reason why you don't like Fenders. Are you now suggesting that along with Strats needing 22 frets, that they should all come stock with Duncans? Even though I'm personally not a fan of stock Fender pickups, considering how many people DO like them, this would seem to be a bad proposition.

And while this is certainly a personal opinion and may be a tad subjective, I have yet to hear a split humbucker in a single coil package that actually sounds the way a traditional single coil does. Flipping that switch to split the hb may give you a single coil, but it's NOT the same sound.


Quote:
And for people ragging on hard rock or metal ? Really ? Im not into the whole death metal or screamo thing these days , but what passes as rock today is a joke. Bunch of hipsters trying to be cool instead of breaking new ground.


And this is relevant...how? Are you suggesting that 1 extra fret on Strats would somehow change that? Are you simply blaming Fender (or Fender "loyalists") for this? How does this comment justify your opinion about some need for an extra fret or different pickups??? This really sounds more like a random rant that was included to make your post sound even more irrational than it already was.

Quote:
And blues is great, but are the local clubs not filled with this " dont spill your beer music " enough already ?


Again I'm not sure how this comment validates your point of view, however not even considering that the name of one of my bands is "The Electric Beer Band", it seems to me that like Fender, those local clubs are businesses. They hire bands that will bring people in the door (and hopefully keep them drinking all night) and as such, they cater the greatest majority of their patrons. In other words, a given bar caters to a given market, be it blues, metal, classic rock or originals, etc.. To me your comment sounds very much like you're trying to dictate what bands should play and what people should listen to...a rather foolish sentiment to say the least.


Quote:
If there wasnt a metal or rock market at all Fender wouldnt have some of the guitars they have available.

Again what are you trying to say here? Are you now suggesting that Fender DOES have a good selection? Would this not be contrary to the comments you've posted so far?



Quote:
This isnt whining or a troll...to me its a reasonable request


-IF- you were paying for a Custom Shop instrument, then it would be a reasonable request. However, expecting a major producer of musical instruments such as Fender to simply come up with a production model based on YOUR specifications is irrational until such time as your notoriety warrants the consideration of a Signature Series in your name.

Now let's take a look at this - you don't like the number of frets, you don't like the pickups, you don't like the color choices, you don't like people who choose to support Fender products on a Fender forum. So far the ONLY thing you actually seem to like about a Fender Strat is...wow...the logo (for which you'd be willing to commit trademark infringement).

Is it REALLY any wonder why some of the folks here have issues with your comments?

To be perfectly frank, your comments seem to suggest that Fender should somehow be catering to you personally. Further, most of your comments come off sounding as little more than "I want...I want...I want..." and what's more is that you expect others to have the same needs as yourself when it comes to something such as a guitar. You seem to believe that your opinion somehow represents some vast majority of players out there...because you like 22 frets on your guitar, it's beyond your understanding that most folks don't really need this...and when people try to explain some of this to you, you accuse them of having some ulterior motive (such as being loyalists or employees).

At the horrifying risk of being perfectly blunt, if you're offended by the term "troll" then maybe some alternate terminology would be more appropriate - "spoiled brat" perhaps?


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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:46 pm
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I have one of each. I have to admit, the 22-fret overhang does look a little unsightly, like it is an afterthought. On the other hand, it is useful once in a while.

I always thought the number of frets in a strat had something to do with the placement of the neck pickup, which was really well thought out according to physics that I don't understand. Having that extra piece of wood in such close proximity to the neck pickup probably affects the tone a tiny bit.


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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:11 pm
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Wayne2 wrote:
I have one of each. I have to admit, the 22-fret overhang does look a little unsightly, like it is an afterthought. On the other hand, it is useful once in a while.

I always thought the number of frets in a strat had something to do with the placement of the neck pickup, which was really well thought out according to physics that I don't understand. Having that extra piece of wood in such close proximity to the neck pickup probably affects the tone a tiny bit.


+1

Have an FSR Ltd. Ed. Am. Vtg. '57 (21 Frets) and an Am. Deluxe Ash (22 Frets).

Hardly use the 22nd Fret unless I'm trying to shatter crystal or communicate w/ Bats.

Most players, incl. pros, get along nicely w/ 21.

As mentioned, get exactly what you want by either building it DIY or paying someone else to do so ie. CS

or do what most of us do... use the 21 God gave you !

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:34 pm
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Wayne2 wrote:
I have one of each. I have to admit, the 22-fret overhang does look a little unsightly, like it is an afterthought. On the other hand, it is useful once in a while.

I always thought the number of frets in a strat had something to do with the placement of the neck pickup, which was really well thought out according to physics that I don't understand. Having that extra piece of wood in such close proximity to the neck pickup probably affects the tone a tiny bit.


Pick ups are located according to a strings pattern of oscillations. A plucked string does not oscillate in one continuous parabolic shape. It is more like waves with crests and troughs. Thus a Stratocaster's pups are located at the point where the string crests .
The extra length of a 22 fret neck isn't going to affect tone unless the string is plucked and fretted at the 22nd fret. It is an electromagnetic field disturbed by the movement of a string.

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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:11 pm
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A lot of people like & want 21 frets--and it sells.

Fender, like other companies,makes what they know people like & what they thin people will like.

In this case like means willing to buy.

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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:27 pm
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I get where you are coming from as the only thing that drives me crazy on my MIM Std is not having 22 frets. Awesome guitar otherwise (shocking for the money). There are reasonably low-cost alternates outside of the MIM line that do have 22 frets before going all the way up to a MIA Std. That all being said, the MIM Std to me is closer to a 60s style Strat with the 21 frets, the bridge, and the electronics, and I like that about them. But that is just how I see the world, I guess ...

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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:32 am
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Wayne2 wrote:
I have one of each. I have to admit, the 22-fret overhang does look a little unsightly, like it is an afterthought....


I agree. I am particularly disappointed with the execution of the 22nd fret on my new 10in15 Hardtail. It was very poorly cut on the underside.

As 22 is "one more" than 21, it does give the impression that it is better; even if in practical terms (for 99.9% of people 99.9999% of the time) it has no bearing. The fact that it seems better means Fender can charge more for it - probably more than the cost of producing it and the complexity of multiple products.

It is perhaps a small thing in isolation but if you ally that one small thing with several other small things - T Bar string trees, block saddles and two post term you suddenly have, what seems, a completely different product for which you can charge a great deal more for.

If you put all of these small additions on "lesser" guitars you have lost the "special" of your "special" (or Deluxe) guitar and can't charge the Deluxe price.

Off thread, but perhaps following on from the thoughts above, it fascinates me how Fender sell their original retro (cheap and inferior) string trees, trems and saddles by giving them the "Vintage" heading and thus making them seem a positive. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:31 am
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John Sims wrote:
Off thread, but perhaps following on from the thoughts above, it fascinates me how Fender sell their original retro (cheap and inferior) string trees, trems and saddles by giving them the "Vintage" heading and thus making them seem a positive. :roll:


You do realize that when Leo Fender designed the Stratocaster it was in the late 40's. The final design was as much a result of his engineering background as it was from the feedback of musicians who wanted a guitar not only capable of cutting thru the predominant horn sections of the times but most importantly a guitar that they could repair or replace any part thereof that failed. Thus quickly be able to return to the stage ..... Hence the production parts guitar.

The design is retro thus vintage...... But you can buy one in an unmolested state, fresh ( as Orcs would describe them 8) ) and upgrade / change / mod whichever part you may feel is insultingly inferior.
I agree that the string trees do exert more tension than needed but the easy fix is less than $5. Barrel trees ..... At the very least I have always replaced the B & E trees. It does make a difference in tuning but overall.... Judging from Fenders competitors and their numerous copies / imitations of the Stratocaster and the Telecaster, you have to admit that the original designs have weathered quite well...

Can they be upgraded ? ... Sure, you can even get Fender to build you one to your specifications ... :shock: :D

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Post subject: Re: Why 21 frets on non vintage or non classic guitars ?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:59 am
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Well....if you REALLY must have a 22-fret neck and insist on keeping the original Fender neck, they you could do this.......(or have someone who knows what they're doing tackle it)


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