It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:54 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
Post subject: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:08 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:22 am
Posts: 30
New guy here and I quite a new player too. I bought my first strat and I really like it but after playing it I noticed one thing that it doesn't have and that is sustain. My Les Paul will sustain for much longer.

The model is a Classic Player '60s. I realize that it needs the zinc block replaced with either a brass or steel model. I don't know which direction to go from here.

I have been on Guitar Fetish's and Callaham ' s Web pages. Both pages have good information but I would like to hear from players with experience on which direction to go and why?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Jay


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:51 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
The trem block is only one part of the guitar, and IMHO it may help some, but it ain't a miracle cure for sustain.
So, first my standard question on new guitars: has the guitar been set up properly, by someone who knows Strats? This would be my recommendation for a starting point.
BTW, don't forget that Santana didn't play Europe with just a guitar and an amp...

But if you absolutely must go for the trem block upgrade (as we all know some of sustain is the GAS between the ears), your guitar has the 2point trem, made by Ping, Fender part# 0072253000.
That spells for "narrow" or "MIM" string spacing (2 1/16", or ~52.5mm). Anyway: always check the key measures on the existing bridge before buying a new one.

Brass or steel... I bet not many can listen to a Strat and tell which block is in, so choose whatever you feel comfortable with.
Or, go high tech if you wish: EKT Steel Baron


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:57 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
jmattis wrote:
The trem block is only one part of the guitar, and IMHO it may help some, but it ain't a miracle cure for sustain.


+1

String saddles and the nut are two additional variables that need to be factored into the sustain equation. Make sure yours are up to the task.

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:42 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:01 pm
Posts: 34
I just add a compressor and a touch of distortion and my guitar sustains forever.

_________________
1978 Fender Hardtail Strat
1983 Kramer Pacer Imperial
1996 Eric Clapton Strat Blackie
2014 Gibson Les Paul Custom Black Beauty


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:53 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:54 am
Posts: 2573
Location: Laurel, MD
[quote="ido1957"]I just add a compressor and a touch of distortion and my guitar sustains forever.[/quo

Compression is nice, but a good setup is a must.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:44 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:22 am
Posts: 30
Thanks for the replies guys. I have conic hot rod syndrome and can't go without fixing things that may or not be broken! :D

Jay


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:58 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
These are just my own opinions and my own experience...

While I do very much agree with the comments about setups (the vast majority of issues with electric guitars often come down to a proper setup), a proper trem block WILL make a huge difference on a Strat. In my own, NOT so humble opinion, it's the second best improvement you can make to a Strat next to the pickups. With an older Mexican Strat or many Squiers and off brands for example, a proper trem block really is the difference between day and night...those zinc blocks just suck the life right out of your tone and sustain regardless of how well the guitar is setup.

On the Callaham vs. GF issue, as I've said many times before, I don't know exactly what Callaham does differently with this cold-rolled process of theirs, but there IS a difference and those Callaham blocks are worth the extra coin. That said, I also have the GF blocks in a couple of my Strats and for the $22, they are still a significant improvement over the stock zinc blocks...better tone, better sustain. On that issue alone, if you can afford it, go with the Callaham, if you're on a budget, go with the Guitar Fetish...you'll notice an improvement either way. Even if you go with the GF, for the $22 it's certainly not going to hurt anything at all.

With the issue of steel vs. brass, for myself at least, this very much comes down to personal taste. I've tried the brass a couple of times and personally didn't care for it as it sounded way too bright for my ears. I had a Korean made Lite Ash Strat that came stock with a brass block and I tried a brass block from Guitar Fetish on my '03 Mexican...after just a few weeks I tore the brass off the Mexican and replaced it with steel and I ended up trading the Lite Ash for a '99 Mexican Fat Strat (which now has a GF steel block). Most Strats are generally bright enough as is, so they really don't need to be any brighter. Brass tends to give a Strat something of a tele-like twang. Fine for a lot of country players, but not really a sound I care for...but again that's just my own personal opinion. The best suggestion I can make is simply to try both and see which sounds better to your ears...you're the one who's gonna have to live with the sound.

Regarding compressors, while this is perhaps a bit subjective, my experience is that they only enhance what's already there...they don't really make up for the short comings of poor sustain. Don't get me wrong here...I have a Boss CS-2 and I love it, BUT...all of my Strats have decent trem blocks (and thus pretty decent sustain). The problem with using a compressor pedal to try and compensate for poor sustain on a guitar with a zinc block is simply that you have to crank the damn thing up sooo much that you usually end up with percussive popping noises while you're playing (for some folks this may actually be desirable, but for most it isn't). In this case I would use the analogy of a woman's use of make up...the proper use of make up can make an already beautiful woman look truly stunning, but a ton of Bondo will NEVER make an ugly woman look pretty (...a bit rude perhaps, but true, LOL).


Now with all of that said, there is something else to keep in mind here. Very simply a Strat and a Les Paul are very different animals. When it comes to sustain, even the best Strat on the planet will tend to be a bit lacking when compared with a Les Paul (with the possible exception of a hardtail Strat of course). For the most part this simply comes down to the nature of the instruments...different woods and of course the concept of the floating trem. Different guitars have different tonal characteristics...a Strat is different than a Les Paul the way a Les Paul is different than a Gretsch semi-hollow. In other words, 'tis the nature of the beast.

To wrap this up, my suggestion would be to replace the zinc block (with either Callaham or GF) and along with this, give the guitar a good, proper setup (which you'll need to do anyways after you replace the block). That alone should make for a very significant difference. At this point if you're still not happy with the sustain, then I would try adding a compressor.

Again, just my own opinions.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:06 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
JayWayman wrote:
I have conic hot rod syndrome and can't go without fixing things that may or not be broken!

Aha, you're that guy.
Keep us posted when you've got that new block on the kid in place, and the guitar is set up properly. The forum will have a nice set of tricks to try to improve sustain even further.

lomitus wrote:
Different guitars have different tonal characteristics...a Strat is different than a Les Paul the way a Les Paul is different than a Gretsch semi-hollow. In other words, 'tis the nature of the beast.

Everybody knows LP's are sustain monsters, and Strats have sustain problems, right? And then:
cycfi sustain test
:wink:


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:56 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
jmattis wrote:
lomitus wrote:
Different guitars have different tonal characteristics...a Strat is different than a Les Paul the way a Les Paul is different than a Gretsch semi-hollow. In other words, 'tis the nature of the beast.

Everybody knows LP's are sustain monsters, and Strats have sustain problems, right? And then:
cycfi sustain test
:wink:


A little tip for anyone reading this post - don't believe everything you read on the internet.

To be perfectly frank, I'm don't think that Guzman's article really provides a fair or valid comparison at all . One issue that caught my attention immediately was that they only seemed to use 1 Strat and 1 Les Paul...if one were to use this test as a broad, generalized representation of "Strats" vs. "Les Pauls", should they have not used a much more substantial cross section of instruments as a basis for comparison? In other words, should they not have used 100 Strats to obtain an average, a 100 Les Pauls to obtain an average, then compared the averages? How does one decide that any given example of an instrument (Strat or Les Paul) is the idealized example to represent the entire production line?

It should be obvious that issues other than the set neck construction come into play when it comes to sustain...the height of the pickups (even if the test was done acoustically), the mass of the bridges and even as you've said, the setup, etc.. Wood certainly plays a factor...you can have 2 otherwise identical Les Pauls (or Strats) where each guitar will have variations of tone and response...2 pieces of wood from the same genus (and often the same tree) can have different density and different acoustic properties...that certainly plays a roll. The author of the article neglected to mention how the samples were obtained...should that not be a factor? Strings certainly play a roll in all this - did they use the same gauge and same brand of strings on both guitars? The author doesn't seem to say. Very simply, there's A LOT more that goes into it beyond just grabbing a random Strat and a random Les Paul and saying "these are the results".

I do find it interesting that a couple of those wave forms are showing the Strat to have quite a bit more oscillation at what's otherwise the same frequency...wasn't really expecting that....however that's also beside the point.


Under the article in the comments section, one person makes a VERY good point. David Spellman states, "never believe the conclusions of an article until you’ve had a chance to evaluate the scientific methodology involved". In this regard, the author appears to have failed completely....there's little or no mention of the methodology the author used regarding the factors I've already mentioned. Spellman also goes on to point out (quite rightly so) that the person doing these so-called experiments seems to be trying to bust a myth and states, "If you go into anything with a preconceived notion or a desire for a specific result, you’re far more likely to get that result". As we've seen all too often on these forums, preconceptions are often a poor indicator of reality. In fact under the comments, Guzman himself says "this post is about questioning long held beliefs"...this alone suggest that this wasn't really an objective test. He even goes on to say, "there can never be a definitive experiment that will satisfy everyone". If this is the case, then we're certainly not talking "science" here at all, so how can the results be accepted as having any validity?

Something I learned in psychology class back in college - just because someone post's what appears to be a scientific study (on the internet or otherwise), doesn't mean it's actually valid. In this case...at first glance at least...it looks like the person doing this experiment over-looked a great number of variables to say the least to really consider this a legitimate accurate comparison in any way.


So with all of that said, I have to stand firmly behind my original comment - a Strat and a Les Paul are two very different beasties.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:24 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
My first reaction to studies/articles etc. that go totally against what I feel is true, is often like yours - "there has to be something wrong with that research". :mrgreen:

But to the topic: a Strat and it's "naturally bad sustain" - well, maybe it's time to revisit Jeff, Rory, Jimi, Eric, Stevie Ray...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:21 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
jmattis wrote:
My first reaction to studies/articles etc. that go totally against what I feel is true, is often like yours - "there has to be something wrong with that research". :mrgreen:

But to the topic: a Strat and it's "naturally bad sustain" - well, maybe it's time to revisit Jeff, Rory, Jimi, Eric, Stevie Ray...


I certainly agree there...a Strat can have some pretty awesome sustain, it's just that you have to work on them a bit sometimes to get them there (...setup, trem block, stuff we've already covered, etc). My '96 MIM for example is just incredible...but then she's got the Callaham block, LSR roller nut, Duncan pickups, etc...slap a bit of compression on her and yea, "sustains for days". About a year back I was showing her to a guy with an early 90's MIA who was crackin' on the Mexican Strats and I showed him just how much sustain I could get off that guitar. I pulled off a couple of riff's from Santana's "Europa" and the guy was just blown away...the poor guy just stood there holding his MIA staring at it, wondering why his wouldn't do that, LOL!

(for what it's worth, that particular MIA was in pretty bad shape)

Anyways, yea...you can certainly do it, sometimes you just have to work at it a bit 8)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Tremolo block questions.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:08 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:20 pm
Posts: 496
JayWayman wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. I have conic hot rod syndrome and can't go without fixing things that may or not be broken! :D

Jay


Welcome to the Forum!

I think you'll find that the Strat is a much better platform for such tinkering than your Les Paul. Don't forget to post pics! Some of us don't even mind a few Les Paul pics mixed in.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: