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Post subject: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:56 am
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Guitars are funny things.
These things are the stuff of constant speculation on issues on tone, intonation, pickup height, and things that claim to maximize performance.
Now,, this based on working on guitars of all types over the years, no particular preference on brands or models.

I remember working on that first guitar years ago, it was a CBS Strat with terrible tone that made for sore fingers no matter what you did to it.
I installed a Dimarzio that increased volume, but the tone didn't change, it still felt like knives digging into your fingers.
A friends' nameless Strat copy sounded better and, yes, the guitar was a dream to play.
I learned that good tone made for one feeling as one squeezing the notes out of the strings.

Intonation, its a joke.
The idea of comparing fretted versus open strings just isn't practical.
The truth is that only a combination of harmonics and fretted notes above the 15th fret will tune the intonation where it actually counts.

Back to that first Strat.
Pickup height, the Fender literature of the time only stated that pickup height was adjustable to taste.
Yup, I noticed that if you raised the height of the rhythm pickup, it sounded ugly and no mater how high you raised the Dimarzio at the bridge, the rhythm pickup's volume always won.
I've always left the rhythm and middle low where they sound clear and the lead elevated as it makes for balance that favors the lead pickup cutting through.
If you only play rhythm, it really doesn't matter, have at it whichever way you want, but lead players need the boost.

I don't doubt that the many tone products may or may not work, all I have to say is, how do you verify what is only subjective?
Trems, another can of worms, I have yet to see one that truly keeps its tuning.

We get taught to learn to critical, to not be gullible, to not fall prey to anyone who wants to have their hand in our pocket.
Why would you ever want to let vendors and luthiers pay for their new cars at our expense?


Last edited by rdclmn7 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:33 am
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Took me a while but I guess you are saying that it's a myth that all pre-CBS Strats are great.

I've heard that it's also a myth that all 70's 3-bolt neck Strats are garbage. I did have one that was garbage, though.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:53 pm
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Stratodude54 - Having own several '70s era 3-bolt Strats, I can say that in my experience, some are great, some are awful. I own a '76 that sounded and play amazingly. My '75 sounds great, but two '77s I have owned were just sad. The neck on my '79 moved around if you yanked on it too hard. Shimming it stopped most of the movement. The '75 and '76 both had tight neck joints. I don't believe that it has to do with the 3 bolt neck, but the neck pocket itself.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:39 pm
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paris wrote:
The neck on my '79 moved around if you yanked on it too hard. Shimming it stopped most of the movement. The '75 and '76 both had tight neck joints. I don't believe that it has to do with the 3 bolt neck, but the neck pocket itself.


The '79 I once owned (25th anniversary model with 4-bolt neck and bullet truss rod) was the most solidly-built Strat I've ever had and the pickups sounded heavenly. But the sonofabitch weighed about 18 lbs and was simply unusable for stage work. A genuine tragedy......

:(

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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:31 pm
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Stratodude54 wrote:
... it's a myth that all pre-CBS Strats are great ...

But it is not a myth that they are very expensive, regardless if they are any good or not ...

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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:12 pm
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paris wrote:
Stratodude54 - Having own several '70s era 3-bolt Strats, I can say that in my experience, some are great, some are awful. I own a '76 that sounded and play amazingly. My '75 sounds great, but two '77s I have owned were just sad. The neck on my '79 moved around if you yanked on it too hard. Shimming it stopped most of the movement. The '75 and '76 both had tight neck joints. I don't believe that it has to do with the 3 bolt neck, but the neck pocket itself.


Yep, mine was a 79, too. Neck would slip around and the neck had the opposite of relief, it was bent backwards even when the truss rod was completly loosened.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:41 am
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Quote:
"We get taught to learn to (be) critical, to not be gullible, to not fall prey to anyone who wants to have their hand in our pocket."


There's probably a few things in the OP's post that I could toss back and forth (such as the comment about trems), however I think that one statement there really deserves a comment or two on it's own.

Ok...I will admit that while as an artist and a musician, I do tend to thrive on "attention", at the very same time, I'm also NOT a people person...it's an odd idiosyncrasy of my personality. For the most part people tend to annoy me because as a general rule, people tend to be....well...stupid. And when it comes to guitars, this really seems to be exacerbated...

A lot of people seem to have a great number of preconceptions when it comes to guitars...and what's more is that very often those preconceptions, often stereotypes, just aren't really justified at all. When it comes to "value" for example, there really is this nasty Western mind set that suggests to people that "something that is expensive MUST be good" and likewise implies that "in order to be good, it MUST be expensive". It seems to go hand in hand with that rather fallible belief that "you get what you pay for", however when it comes to guitars, very often it's just not true.

The fact of the matter here is that while people SHOULD be critical when considering an individual instrument such as a guitar, logic and reason often take a back seat to these meaningless preconceptions. Beyond my above comment (about perceptions of value), so many people will simply be told by a friend or mentor...or even read something on the likes of a guitar forum...that will sway their opinion one way or the other. It has little to do with the individual's actual experience or any facts, it's simply that "someone told them that such and such was better" (or that such and such sucks) and as a result, they immediately loose any sense of objectivity. I suspect that part of it is simply that it's easier to "believe" than it is to educate one's self and learn the facts...after all, learning takes effort and people, as a general rule, are inherently lazy.

The same goes very much for amps as well. Regarding the subjective nature of "tone", I seriously doubt we'll ever see an end to the debate between tubes and solid state. Do tubes sound better? -Maybe-...in certain situations (and yes, I have a couple of tube amps that I do love). Does it really matter? No...of course not. If you're playing live on stage, be it a local club or a large coliseum, chances are that no one, including your fellow musicians are really gonna know the difference. Likewise in a recording situation, by the time the sound engineer gets thru pushing, pulling, tweaking, eq'ing and compressing that signal, whether you used a tube amp or not becomes completely irrelevant. The only real time that the subtle differences between tube and SS really come into play is when you're sitting alone in a quiet room (maybe your bedroom or basement), when you can close your eyes and actually hear the difference. This simple fact however never stops a purist from thinking that they "need" a tube amp in order to play.

Now I would quickly add that when it comes to "vintage gear" and more specifically "collectors", it's a different game. It becomes less about "a guitar" and more about a speculative "collector's value", such as seen with a few of the comments here regarding those 70's Strats. To be frank, many of those CBS era Strats were rather poor instruments and the degree of quality control back then was certainly lacking (there's some good 70's Strats, but there's some REALLY crappy instruments out there). A collector however doesn't typically value the instrument on how well it plays or how it sounds as much as how much he (she) think's they can get for it down the road. Consider an average guitar show for example...often you will see someone who has a really old Kay or Harmony...cheap, low quality, budget instrument...something that likely cost less around $25 new at Sears and Roebucks back in 1961, however because it's "vintage", someone suddenly thinks it's worth $2500...the perceived value really has NOTHING to do with the quality of the guitar.

In any case, my attitude has always been this; when I buy a guitar or amp (or other gear for that matter), where it was made or how much it cost isn't really a consideration for me. I will say that despite having around 25 guitars currently in my arsenal, I do NOT consider myself a collector. I'm a musician...a guitar player. I judge an individual guitar on it's merits as just that...a guitar. When it comes to guitars, ok...sure...I may be initially drawn to a guitar over how it looks. As an artist I can admit that aesthetics ARE important. However I'd NEVER buy a guitar simply based on looks alone...the guitar MUST be playable. My singular greatest concern when purchasing a guitar is how that instrument feels. With an acoustic, I will extend that to how it sounds as well, but with an electric sound is enough to change (new pickups, better hardware, etc).. The label on the headstock, let alone "where it was made" simply have no factors for me there at all. Similar goes for amps as well...in my mind a guitar amp is simply a tool. Can I dial in the sound I need for a given situation and does it have enough power for my given needs? Yes, there are certain amps I prefer...Fender Twins, Roland JC120's, Lab L5's, etc.. Thru my own experience...having played thru A LOT of amps over the years...I tend to find these amps serve me well. That said, I've also used my little Peavey Backstage and most recently my little Roland Microcube as much, if not more than my Lab or my vintage Bandmaster. That said, which amp I use simply depends on the individual situation.

Unfortunately, preconceptions and stereotypes tend to flourish in this environment we call "music". Perhaps it's simply that so much of what we do as musicians is based on passion and emotion instead of logic. It's possible that some people may think that better gear will make them a better musician...as a photographer, it still amazes me how many people think their poor pictures are because of a "bad" camera (LOL). Maybe it's because while we've been warned of the dangers of being gullible, from a very early age we've been taught to be "trusting"...you should trust your parents, trust your religious leaders, trust your government, etc., and wow...DON'T question your superiors! (Personally I don't trust anyone (except my dog)...if your own mother says she loves you, VERIFY IT). Regardless of the motivation however, when it comes to guitars sadly a lot of people do get sucked in by "hype". For example, take two otherwise identical products, be it guitars, pickups, etc., and attach the term "Special Edition" or "Signature Series" or in most recent years, "boutique" and suddenly in the public's eye, this product now has a greater value. When you can attach a notable personality to such a thing, as with "Signature Series"...wow...people's brain cells just start oozing out their left ear! LOL! It really is one of the oldest marketing tricks in the book...call something "new and improved" and people will run out in hords to buy it (seriously...just ask Bill Gates!). Perhaps the saddest thing however is that if you promise people something like "this product will improve your tone", inevitably someone is gonna buy it hook, line and sinker...and regardless of whether it's really true or not, someone will defend it. You'll ALWAYS have someone who will swear up and down that this product did indeed improve their tone. It has nothing to do with facts or reason, it's simply that people have a bad tendency to try and rationalize their choices.



Anyways, while people should be critical and NOT gullible, so often when it comes to guitars, this just isn't the case. It's a sad and unfortunate part of the human condition, however one simple truth about people...musicians or otherwise...is that very often people will "choose to believe" regardless of facts, reason or common sense.

As a smart man once said, "you just can't fix stupid".


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:31 pm
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I agree with much lomitus has said. All of those guitars that were cheap back in the day were cheap for a reason-that being that for the most part they were total pieces of crap. Cheap necks-totally unstable-the "these are great for slide", line should be a clue to that! Finishes that separated from the bodies, electronics that worked intermittently at best, hardware made of pot metal (or chrome covered plastic), instruments that could barely be tuned, and intonation was impossible.
I well remember the Kays, Harmonys, Kents, Teiscos, Silvertones, etc., etc., as being the cheapest fodder out there, sold at department stores, just like the "Starcasters" one sees at the K-mart today. They were of comparable quality.
Jack White, Black Keys, et al. be damned... these things were POS.
We regularly bought Sears Silvertone electrics for $5 at garage sales just to live out our teenage Who fantasies by destroying them onstage. Not to say that there are never diamonds in the roughage, but like everything else: you usually get what you pay for.
Wish I'd saved some of those lipstick pickups out of the Silvertones now, tho'...


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:31 pm
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rdclmn7 wrote:
Intonation, its a joke.
The idea of comparing fretted versus open strings just isn't practical.
The truth is that only a combination of harmonics and fretted notes above the 15th fret will tune the intonation where it actually counts.


While I can certainly concede the impossibility of getting a Strat absolutely perfectly intoned at every point on the board I do fail to see any humour whatsoever in the your statement that intonation is a joke. Intonation is hardly a laughing matter or perhaps you intended to infer the Strat's mechanism for intonation is too crude to be of any use in which case I would be interested in hearing about all the guitars you own which have a superior system in place.
Also, if you don't mind, I'd like to know exactly why intonation counts only in the upper registers and the logic behind that reasoning.

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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:03 pm
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Tune the guitar with harmonics.
Make sure the sound is distorted so you can hear the harmonics.
Fret the high B off the E string and play it against the high B harmonic above the 5th fret, B string.
Adjust the saddle of the E string until it matches the harmonic.
Follow through until all strings are adjusted.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:17 am
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rdclmn7 wrote:
Tune the guitar with harmonics.
Make sure the sound is distorted so you can hear the harmonics.
Fret the high B off the E string and play it against the high B harmonic above the 5th fret, B string.
Adjust the saddle of the E string until it matches the harmonic.
Follow through until all strings are adjusted.

Now I understand your frustration with intonation issues.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:28 am
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jmattis wrote:
Now I understand your frustration with intonation issues.

Yep.

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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:14 am
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rdclmn7 wrote:
Tune the guitar with harmonics.
Make sure the sound is distorted so you can hear the harmonics.
Fret the high B off the E string and play it against the high B harmonic above the 5th fret, B string.
Adjust the saddle of the E string until it matches the harmonic.
Follow through until all strings are adjusted.


While I could be wrong, to me this sounds more like it's an issue that results from tempered tuning rather than intonation specifically. I haven't really experimented with this...nor am I likely to...however it seems to me that since the system we use to tune a guitar isn't "perfectly in tune" to begin with, that it would be unlikely the intonation and harmonics would be either. I strongly suspect that if the guitar were setup and tuned to an interval, you'd probably have different results.

That said, my experience has been this; as a photographer can literally drive themselves insane trying to reproduce "perfect colors" (not that such a thing really exists), a musician can drive him/her self totally nuts over such tuning issues. I've seen folks who use compensated nuts, compensated saddles, had custom fretboards cut, yadda, yadda, trying to get that -perfect- tuning to their instrument...I think the term is obsessive-compulsive. The fact however is that with all of it's flaws regarding any sense of perfection, people have been making perfectly suitable music on these suckers for quite a long while now. It's really NOT the sort of thing that people should be obsessing over.....

Just my $.02...


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:32 pm
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There's no doubt that anything taken to the extreme is just not healthy.
Just like being sold on buying any number of products that are of dubious value.
With that being said, there are still things out there are verifiable, its then a matter of whether or not its worth the effort.
So, like its been already been said, plenty of good music has been made without all the fancy, useless products that promise much but don't deliver.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Myths.
Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:26 am
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I must admit that I fail to see the point in the OP's theme.
(1) This really should be moved to the lounge section but nevertheless.

Intonation can be correct. That is following the rules of a string instrument built to a 25.5 scale and based on a tempered system of harmonics. ( correct within these parameters. )
That said it is not possible to have each and every open and fretted note exactly on their respective frequency. Not with the fretted system of the neck.

There are alternative necks available with frets placed accordingly. However those bring on an entirely separate universe. Not the easiest of guitars to play and for the world of R/B, Blues, Rock etc... It's overkill in a musical world based on distortion and quite dissonant phrasings.. lol

To the OP I would suggest doing some research as to why the common tempered system is the one we use. Based on the spanish guitar. Centuries of string instrument experiments precede our modern versions. At the very least it is an educational journey. One which would render this discussion to be based on solid facts rather than conjecture and myths.

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