It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:56 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:10 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14049
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
Neck angle/ micro tilt adjustment is only useful if you can't have the right action with saddle and /or bridge . Best is to keep neck straight with guitare body , neck is full contact with body cavity

When you study carefully how guitars work AND with the right tools and ruler and gauge, you can take some reading and know if neck angle or curve or....is right or not .
If they are right , you can forget them.
If all the guitar is set up perfectly but you don't like it , buy a better guitar .
First you must be sur of your work

Without tools , you work like a blind .

Before we must learn ,and study carefully book .
Myself I need to lear too.


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:14 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:29 am
Posts: 16
sfceric64 wrote:
"Just the g mate all over the neck, if I octave the g string with both the high e and the a string it is off. Although it reads +1 cent sharp on the decay of the fretted note, I am a soft player which is why I set it on the decay as opposed to the attack."

From this answer I cant tell if you tuned the open G flat or not, and then checked the rest of the notes fretted up the neck. If so and they were all off as well as the open G, change the string and start over...Sometimes strings are bad out of the box, rarely but sometimes...

IMO, setting on the decay is "tuning down" or catching a falling knife. The attack will always be sharper and ring louder than the sustain.

sounds like you want a stratavarious tone out of a guitar, good luck.


Thanks for your reply.
Maybe I am overcomplicating things. I think I will start from scratch, try to a fresh set of strings, and adjust the saddles on that attack of the note, I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks again.

_________________
American Standard Strat.
Carvin Ae-185.
Epiphone, Dot 335.
Squier, Affinity Tele.
Ibanez, AEG10, acoustic


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:17 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:29 am
Posts: 16
stratele52 wrote:
Neck angle/ micro tilt adjustment is only useful if you can't have the right action with saddle and /or bridge . Best is to keep neck straight with guitare body , neck is full contact with body cavity

When you study carefully how guitars work AND with the right tools and ruler and gauge, you can take some reading and know if neck angle or curve or....is right or not .
If they are right , you can forget them.
If all the guitar is set up perfectly but you don't like it , buy a better guitar .
First you must be sur of your work

Without tools , you work like a blind .

Before we must learn ,and study carefully book .
Myself I need to lear too.


Thanks for the advice I'm going to try what sfceric has suggested, see if setting on the decay could be the problem. Thanks for the reply mate.

_________________
American Standard Strat.
Carvin Ae-185.
Epiphone, Dot 335.
Squier, Affinity Tele.
Ibanez, AEG10, acoustic


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:27 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14049
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
I use the Peterson VSII Virtual Stope Tuner since I see the standard $100 guitar tuners are not reliable .

I know many luthier use this tuner , I bought it 15 years ago or more .


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:09 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:29 am
Posts: 16
sfceric64 wrote:
"Just the g mate all over the neck, if I octave the g string with both the high e and the a string it is off. Although it reads +1 cent sharp on the decay of the fretted note, I am a soft player which is why I set it on the decay as opposed to the attack."

From this answer I cant tell if you tuned the open G flat or not, and then checked the rest of the notes fretted up the neck. If so and they were all off as well as the open G, change the string and start over...Sometimes strings are bad out of the box, rarely but sometimes...

IMO, setting on the decay is "tuning down" or catching a falling knife. The attack will always be sharper and ring louder than the sustain.

sounds like you want a stratavarious tone out of a guitar, good luck.


I took your advice mate. Replaced strings, redid all measurements, stretched the string tuned to pitch, change my mindset away from all of the technically in-depth theory about setting it sharp on the decay, used the K.I.S.S. method. It seems to play a great deal better. Now I think I can tweak it until I get it where I am satisfied enoughThanks.

_________________
American Standard Strat.
Carvin Ae-185.
Epiphone, Dot 335.
Squier, Affinity Tele.
Ibanez, AEG10, acoustic


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:12 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:29 am
Posts: 16
stratele52 wrote:
I use the Peterson VSII Virtual Stope Tuner since I see the standard $100 guitar tuners are not reliable .

I know many luthier use this tuner , I bought it 15 years ago or more .


I am using the petersen software tuner. Thanks for all your help, and thanks for not being an arse and slagging me, I know it's very hard to diagnose intonation problems via a forum without playing, or even seeing the guitar in person, thanks again for your patience.

_________________
American Standard Strat.
Carvin Ae-185.
Epiphone, Dot 335.
Squier, Affinity Tele.
Ibanez, AEG10, acoustic


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:47 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
Heid68 wrote:
Are you going to try to offer a constructive solution, or are you going to continue with the lame attempt at sarcasm?

OK, let's go a bit more constructive (but with a bit of sarcasm, too...):

- You wrote "new strings Fender super bullet 9's, neck relief, action, nut action, trem claw balance, proper trem floating gap, pivot bolt correctly set, all fine".
Might we get some measures; especially for relief and nut action? And: does the situation change (better/worse) if you adjust the neck absolutely straight?
- Have you compared intonation elsewhere; 2nd to 14th fret, 5th to 17th..?
- Which pickup are you using to intonate?
- Which way does the G go wrong compared to highE & A; does this difference get bigger when you play on higher frets?
And yes, diagnosing in the net is mostly guessing.

And (the sarcasm part), a quote from Strat Setup Guide: "Remember, guitars are tempered instruments!". They're never in perfect tune for every string on every fret.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:05 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:29 am
Posts: 16
jmattis wrote:
Heid68 wrote:
Are you going to try to offer a constructive solution, or are you going to continue with the lame attempt at sarcasm?

OK, let's go a bit more constructive (but with a bit of sarcasm, too...):

- You wrote "new strings Fender super bullet 9's, neck relief, action, nut action, trem claw balance, proper trem floating gap, pivot bolt correctly set, all fine".
Might we get some measures; especially for relief and nut action? And: does the situation change (better/worse) if you adjust the neck absolutely straight?
- Have you compared intonation elsewhere; 2nd to 14th fret, 5th to 17th..?
- Which pickup are you using to intonate?
- Which way does the G go wrong compared to highE & A; does this difference get bigger when you play on higher frets?
And yes, diagnosing in the net is mostly guessing.

And (the sarcasm part), a quote from Strat Setup Guide: "Remember, guitars are tempered instruments!". They're never in perfect tune for every string on every fret.


Thanks for the reply, sorry for being nippy on the earlier post, just frustrated mate.
All measurements set to Fender factory specs, I drop the pups down to eliminate the magnets from interfering with string vibration, neck is straight, I've taken sfceric64's advice and changed strings again,set the intonation on the attack of the note as opposed to +1 cent sharp on the decay. This seems to cause the guitar to be a lot better as far as being tuned to itself. I can tweak it from here and try to get it as close as I can.

_________________
American Standard Strat.
Carvin Ae-185.
Epiphone, Dot 335.
Squier, Affinity Tele.
Ibanez, AEG10, acoustic


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:22 am
Offline
Amateur
Amateur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:58 am
Posts: 100
Location: Surfers Paradise AUST.
The way I play with all sorts of weird open chords, I can't stand the slightest intonation glitch. G and B especially noticeable.
Sends me nuts !!!

If it ain't right after I do a decent setup, it's nut time.
After I got my first Earvana nut...and kicked it across the floor a bit, did a little dance, and actually made the effort to shape it to fit...I've gone back for more. Works for me.
I used a Dremel with carbide burs (to grind down the bottom of the nut itself to sit lower), and fine slot files, that helped.
Just get the strings low off the nut.
Fret the string at the 2nd fret, the clearance off the 1st fret to the bottom of the string could be no more than 0.7mm even as low as 0.3mm, depends how hard you hit the open string before it fret buzzes ....and Fester's yur unckle :lol:

:arrow:....UPDATE
jmattis also recomends:
As a non-earvana user - those 0,3 to 0,7 mm measures are still way high for my taste.
One consensus seems to be .010 lowE/.006 highE (0,25mm/0,15mm) clearance (capo on 3rd fret, measure from the bottom of the string to the top of the 1st fret),
but I usually cut the slots even lower than these.
The numbers I mentioned are safe; they still have a little leeway for wearing and give a good overall playability/tuning result.

_________________
Warning: This may only work for me :evil:
___________________

Image


Last edited by Johnny Soniq on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:53 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
Johnny Soniq wrote:
The way I play with all sorts of weird open chords, I can't stand the slightest intonation glitch. G and B especially noticeable.

I believe it's time to modify my previous post a little:
"Remember, guitars are tempered instruments!". They're never in perfect tune for every string on every fret, even with earvanas, buzzfeitens or other devices designed to improve tuning.
(This just might turn into a lengthy and meandering discussion on digituner precision, hearing, the nature of a stringed instrument etc.) :wink: :wink: :wink:

Johnny Soniq wrote:
Fret the string at the 2nd fret, it should be no more than 1.5 - 1.7mm off the 1st fret to the bottom of the string....

You may have a misplaced decimal point there...
One consensus seems to be .010 lowE/.006 highE (0,25mm/0,15mm) clearance (capo on 3rd fret, measure from the bottom of the string to the top of the 1st fret),
but I usually cut the slots even lower than these.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:28 am
Offline
Amateur
Amateur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:58 am
Posts: 100
Location: Surfers Paradise AUST.
jmattis wrote:
Johnny Soniq wrote:
Fret the string at the 2nd fret, it should be no more than 1.5 - 1.7mm off the 1st fret to the bottom of the string....

You may have a misplaced decimal point there...
One consensus seems to be .010 lowE/.006 highE (0,25mm/0,15mm) clearance (capo on 3rd fret, measure from the bottom of the string to the top of the 1st fret),
but I usually cut the slots even lower than these.

Man good catch there. Edited. I've checked the lowest I've been game to go before my heavy handed playing buzzes on open strings...1st fret distance to bottom of string about 0.3mm but maybe up to 0.7mm on low E. But that's with string depressed at 2nd fret.
Yeah it's that tempered thing that puts a snake in it, but I reckon I've significantly changed both mine and guitar's temper by tossing the basic nut haha... trooly worth the effort, for me anyway.

_________________
Warning: This may only work for me :evil:
___________________

Image


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:58 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
Capo on the 3rd fret means the string contacts the 2nd fret, so I understand the measuring system is the same for us...

But anyway - as a non-earvana user - those 0,3 to 0,7 mm measures are still way high for my taste. I've no idea what earvana recommends, though.
The numbers I mentioned are safe; they still have a little leeway for wearing and give a good overall playability/tuning result.
Too high nut slots, and the lowest fret notes (especially frets 1-3 on G/B/highE) play out of tune.

In fact, a nut slot could be cut to the height of the frets, and the guitar should play just fine even with heavier hands - remember, there are a lot of zero fret guitars with all frets level...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:35 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
" took your advice mate. Replaced strings, redid all measurements, stretched the string tuned to pitch, change my mindset away from all of the technically in-depth theory about setting it sharp on the decay, used the K.I.S.S. method. It seems to play a great deal better. Now I think I can tweak it until I get it where I am satisfied enoughThanks."

glad it worked out for you...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:29 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:19 am
Posts: 17
I had a similar problem. The low E string saddle was as far back as it could go - literally - and the damn 12th fret was still sharp. (I'm super anal about pitch too.) Didn't really want to shorten the spring on a brand new guitar - that had just replaced a brand new faulty one! So after cursing QC (I'm really good at cursing QC), the Heavens and everything in between - probably stopping at, but not limited to, my neighbor's pet hamster, or something - I tried a different approach.

What worked was starting all the way over. Screwdriver counter-clockwise, until the spring was loose as a goose. Then screwed it back in, checking pitch as I went. Did the trick.

Dunno if it was a fluke, but I'll try that first the next time I have trouble intonating (other way round if its flat rather than sharp, of course). The physics of it makes sense, logically. Now that I think back on it, that is: it's fair to say I was more emotional than logical just then :)

_________________
"That is WAY too much pressure!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 99 Am. Std. driving me crazy!
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:50 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:23 am
Posts: 17
Location: London and Maidstone, England
Many people have difficulties with intonation. Hopefully the following will assist.

Initial Rough Setting
Measuring the distance from the inside of the nut to the centre of the 12th fret wire and doubling it gives the value for the scale length. Adjust the first string bridge saddle to the scale length, measuring from the inside of the nut to the centre of the saddle. Adjust the distance of the second string bridge saddle back from the first string bridge saddle, using the 2nd string as a gauge. Adjust the third string bridge saddle back from the second string bridge saddle using the 3rd string as a gauge. The fourth string bridge saddle should be adjusted to be parallel with the second. The fifth and sixth string bridge saddles should be aligned using the same procedure as for the second and third, using the corresponding 5th and 6th strings as gauges.

Fine Setting
Adjustments can be made with the instrument on its back but intonation should always be checked in the playing position as the readings will be visibly (and later audibly) different. Always aim to freeze or “cage” the image on the strobe tuner display. The least movement on the display gives the more accurate results.

Tune the strings to pitch

Lower the pickups away from the strings to avoid doubling and electromagnetic pull.

An often used technique is the 12th fret and flageolet comparison method. In this method the flageolet or “harmonic” over the 12th fret is compared to the fretted string at the 12th fret, with the saddle position adjusted as follows:

If the fretted note is flat compared to the flageolet note, move the bridge saddle forward to shorten the string.

If the fretted note is sharp compared to the flageolet note, move the bridge saddle back to lengthen the string.

Adjust until both fretted note and flageolet note are identical in pitch.

This common system is not always the most satisfactory. One alternative is to adjust each string so that it is in tune at two points an octave apart on the fret board using a strobe tuner. The string should be fretted using the pressure normally used while playing. Using the 5th and 17th frets as an example:

Tune a string at the 5th fret.

Check the string at the 17th fret.

If the fretted note is flat, move the bridge saddle forward to shorten the string.

If the fretted note is sharp, move the bridge saddle back to lengthen the string.

Keep repeating this process until each string is in tune as much as possible at both the 5th and 17th frets.

It is worth checking the intonation at the 19th fret of the 1st string (B natural) against the open B string. If the open B and E are in tune then the 19th fret and the open B should not “beat”. This applies equally to the 20th fret on the B string and the open G string. Similar checks should be tried on the 19th fret for all the other strings.

_________________
It's all about the tone...


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: