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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:10 am
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tvr1979 wrote:
A thought missing here, but in the back of my mind, is would you pay someone to "relic" a guitar? ...


I would buy a guitar that has been reliced - assuming I liked the way it had been done. Otherwise, I would love to do one myself, so wouldn't pay someone to do it. However, I am a joiner by trade and have been working with my hands on and off for 40+ years so have the appropriate tools, and skills, at my disposal. For me the thrill would be doing it over and above owning the finished item.

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:24 am
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danagos wrote:
I saw this thread had reached 6 pages & hoped something interesting was being discussed.

Nope, SOSDD :lol:


So you don't read the subject of threads before entering? :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:36 am
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I think part of the problem is how one is defining a relic. Is it a new guitar that was throw down the stairs? Is it a new guitar that has intentional finish wear, chips and scratches done with intent to look road worn or "mojoed"? Is it an old guitar in need of restoration but the owner wants to keep it original? Is it a guitar that is paying tribute to an artist that happened to play a beat up guitar? Is it any guitar that was damaged?

Why would someone pay another to relic a guitar or pay thousands for a Custom Shop relic? Because they want a certain look for whatever reason, it is no one else's business or concern unless any copyrights are being violated.

Myself as a builder and customizer do not do many relics...maybe one or 2 a year. I can give them exactly what they want for much less then a retailer/Fender has to charge. Not a big deal really if the customer is happy nor does it matter what anyone else thinks as if you are playing live your PLAYING is what really tells the story. Some just like to collect or display an old beat up looking guitar...more power to them. Maybe they will actually play more if they love the look??

As well on occasion I might have to do a finish on a newer raw body to match an original older neck. So if the customer does not want a full restoration to "like new" I am required to artificially age the body to match the neck condition and what would look most correct for the year/era. That is also considered relic-ing....but really in a sense is actually "replicating". Some seem to imply all this takes is abusing it or leaving it in a truck or beating it up....they have NO IDEA what it takes until they try it themselves. That is why people pay to have this done and why there are many really bad guitars out there they are not actually "relics" in the correct usage of the term, but damaged.

On the other hand why would anyone want a Fender "Joe Strummer" tele in which the original finish was damaged intentionally by Joe and painted with flat gray hot rod primer and black cheap rattle cans? Maybe they like the look, the band, the image, the memories etc etc etc? So what if they do? Ask Fender if they give a crap... Their job is to deliver the guitars people want, not to make only one the everyone will like. Because anyone rational knows that can never happen.

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Last edited by ebaysux on Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:51 am
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ebaysux wrote:
As well on occasion I might have to do a finish on a newer raw body to match an original older neck. So if the customer does not want a full restoration to "like new" I am required to artifiucally age the body to match the neck condition and what would look most correct for the year/era. That is also considered relic-ing....but really in a sense is actually "replicating". Some seem to imply all this takes is abusing it or leaving it in a truck or beating it up....they have NO IDEA what it takes until they try it themselves. That is why people pay to have this done and why there are many really bad guitars out there they are not actually "relics" in the correct usage of the term, but damaged.


On this point I am in complete agreement. I have performed restorative work of this nature (both on guitars and amps) and it is quite the challenge to replicate (or more precisely, extrapolate) an existing wear pattern from an existing vintage part to a new or reproduction part where both pieces must join to form a single contiguous unit. There is an art and a science to it and the finest jobs result in a totally seamless symbiosis between old and new.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:08 am
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Thanks Arjay, it is always nice to agree :P and also nice to know you understand what it takes to "make" something from what it is to what someone "wants".

That said, I put the same care and attention to detail into a relic/replica/tribute as a resto. Sometimes I even restore non vintage amps/cabs simply for resale. For example this was found in a dumpster....

Image

It needed the tolex repaired in many places, a complete new wood back recovered in tolex, an input jack and plate, the metal handles sanded down and refinshed, the grills straightened out and refinished, a re-wiring and other various de-funking/de-rusting. One day later we had this... Fortunately and amazingly both channels of the head worked perfectly (all tube amps and biased checked) and the speakers granted a bit faded still all work and sound very close to a Marshall ( the speakers are all Celestion vintage 30s).

Image

(Note: This was before I armor-alled the cab. After, the black sheen will match the head which was already armor-alled.)

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:27 am
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shimmilou wrote:
I'm sure that the mods will step in at some point, with a minimum of a nice reminder from Rob.

But, really, we don't help our case when we get caught up in the insult game, regardless of who started it. I have been trying more to just let it go, because it does no good to lower ourselves to being insulting.

Make a comment, let others comment and forget it. 8)


You are 100% correct but that is easier said then done....especially when others know how to push your buttons and do it with a sledge hammer lol. I do however enjoy a heated debate and even a little drama but once it is reduced to a pissing contest and insult fest and ganging up on other members, the line was too far crossed. I take responsibility for my part and understand it takes at least two to tango, but I really do try to put a conscious effort into not drawing first blood (granted once in a while I can slip up)..I will generally apologize if it is pointed out.

I feel as long as we all understand the boundaries between an "opinion" and a personal insult we can easily self moderate these types of arguments.

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Last edited by ebaysux on Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:28 am
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A worthy effort, competently executed.

And since it was a dumpster "rescue", the P/E ratio (once you flipped it) was likely substantial.

A win/win in my book.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:42 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
A worthy effort, competently executed.

And since it was a dumpster "rescue", the P/E ratio (once you flipped it) was likely substantial.

A win/win in my book.

Arjay


That was a rare score but they happen. The best for me so far however is this....

Image

It is a real 1969 Gibson SG. The neck was separated from the body (I got both in exchange for some re-wiring work) and it did have a well done repair to the body where the neck installs however not complete. I had to chisel out the "groove" where the neck inserts and learn how to "set" a neck as you know unlike Fenders these are not bolt ons... but like a one piece and setting is most critical to action.

My biggest decision next is do I restore it like new, or restore it to how it should look if it was original but unrestored where it is actually worth more but will be substantially more work. Because to really do a relic properly the pros know that you first have to restore it to like new...and then age it.

I do have many era correct parts for it including the Patent number "T-top" pups, tuners, trem bridge, pots etc which were not cheap but I got a really good deal. (Even a correct hard case). The biggest issue on it is really that there is a gouge in the body front from where someone over sanded and the correct paint is a clear cherry which would show the repair fill. If I do a relic I can make that look like it was natural damage. Oh the decisions...... I would love to keep this one but I have to consider re-sale on a score like that.

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:05 pm
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ebaysux wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
It doesn't make any difference to me what your guitar looks like but if it's intentionally got all the wear and tear of a real vintage you can't play innocent when someone suggests it's a fake. Just sayin'.


This comment makes no sense unless someone is trying to pass off a relic as an original. If no one can tell the difference does it really matter to anyone but the owner?
Soooo .... I guess that means you have never once been in an audience watching a band and wondered if that guitar the guy/gal is playing is a real vintage or just a relic. If that is true then please allow me to suggest you are in a very small minority. I assure you, that thought crosses most people's minds in that situation. If it never crosses yours, good for you but please don't require others to follow suit. The question is normal and natural.

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shimmilou wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
Well, one thing is certain. I, for one, will no longer remain silent when someone implies those who don't like relics and voice their opinions are inherently insecure, insulting or don't have a clue...


Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to someone simply voicing their opinion about not liking relics. I was referring to those that hurl insults and demean those that do like relics. You should know that, and I'm sure that you can clearly see the difference.
And my comment was not intended to be directed squarely at you, Shimmi. I'm sure you also know that many have made the same accusations and much worse in the past.

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ebaysux wrote:
There is no reason we can not discuss the pros and cons of anything and not have to resort to degrading others and being condescending. The issue comes when an "opinion".... is actually a personal insult.
What? You mean like this?
ebaysux wrote:
PLEASE try to read all the comments again and if you do not understand where I am coming from and how CLEARLY I have explained this time and time and time and time and time again. let me know and I will type it again in all caps. bold, and more slowly. Or I can just forward copies of the attacks to the forum administrators who seemingly do not give a $@!&...... and probably because regardless of all the trolling and bullying going on in these forums ....
Shall I infer from this that your act of typing slowly and in caps will somehow stir the synapses of my otherwise dead brain into life long enough for me to comprehend your meaning? Shall I also infer that anyone who disagrees with you is a troll worthy of reporting.

Edited for the sake of clarity

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Last edited by BMW-KTM on Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:08 pm
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Now suddenly this is raising up some interesting points...

ebaysux, you're sort of stretching the term "relic" towards "restoration" with that newer body reliced to fit an older neck comparison. Technically you're right, but it's a bit out of this topic's context - I believe that was about purchasing a new guitar that's artificially made to look old.

But, of course (and if we continue to take distance from the original topic), that brings us to the my grandfather's axe (pun intended) dilemma...


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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:08 pm
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There is a "process" known in the car restoration industry which is dubbed "restification". That is where you restore an older vehicle to look like how many people modified these vehicles back in the day. For example maybe a hood scoop, decals, side pipes, vintage aftermarket rims and tires, primer paint jobs etc.... it is really about nostalgia.

I think it can be also used in replace of the term relic-ing or modifying in some cases with guitars. For example most guitars in the 70s were fitted with humbuckers and floating/locking trems etc. and if you go to purchase an original 70s body most of them will have routes for these mods that were so popular at the time. Now granted because these old USA Fenders are getting so expensive it will have more value "dollar wise" to a collector if it was unmodified and mint. However there is still value to a restified build for nostaglic purposes such as if they used to play one like that years ago and regret selling it. Of course if they wanted to find a mint original and then modify it that would be crazy.... so this is where a relic builder can come in very handy.

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:11 pm
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Hi danagos, no I wasn't directing it to you.


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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:12 pm
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jmattis wrote:
Now suddenly this is raising up some interesting points...

ebaysux, you're sort of stretching the term "relic" towards "restoration" with that newer body reliced to fit an older neck comparison. Technically you're right, but it's a bit out of this topic's context - I believe that was about purchasing a new guitar that's artificially made to look old.

But, of course (and if we continue to take distance from the original topic), that brings us to the my grandfather's axe (pun intended) dilemma...


That is why in a previous post I specifically mentioned that an issue could be how some are defining "relic". If we are going to have a discussion regarding relics why should we not consider all the definitions and processes?

Of course if all a relic is supposed to mean in this context being a new guitar artificially made to look old it does apply. Because most people simply do not have the funds for an original and that is the purpose of using a builder or trying to do one yourself.... granted unless one really understands the process or learns how to practice on worthless things first will most likely disappoint. (or at the very least really study original "relics" that have the look you are going for and then learn the correct processes and techniques used to replicate the aging/wear. Of course consider not all guitars age the same way or receive the same dings and scratches and wear etc.. so many factors come into play).

For example way back in the day Fender was known to paint solid colors over sunburst. And this is why to some it is desirable to have a relic where you can see the sunburst under the solid color that is wearing off. I personally think that looks ugly but because it is authentic to what Fender actually did and how these guitars do naturally wear I can understand the appeal to some.

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Last edited by ebaysux on Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:18 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
ebaysux wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
It doesn't make any difference to me what your guitar looks like but if it's intentionally got all the wear and tear of a real vintage you can't play innocent when someone suggests it's a fake. Just sayin'.


This comment makes no sense unless someone is trying to pass off a relic as an original. If no one can tell the difference does it really matter to anyone but the owner?
Soooo .... I guess that means you have never once been in an audience watching a band and wondered if that guitar the guy/gal is playing is a real vintage or just a relic. If that is true then please allow me to suggest you are in a very small minority. I assure you, that thought crosses most people's minds in that situation. If it never crosses yours, good for you but please don't require others to follow suit. The question is normal and natural.


Did I say or imply no one is going to question if any guitar is original or a relic? Please re-read again and if you still do not understand my point I will explain it in more depth.



shimmilou wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
Well, one thing is certain. I, for one, will no longer remain silent when someone implies those who don't like relics and voice their opinions are inherently insecure, insulting or don't have a clue...


Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to someone simply voicing their opinion about not liking relics. I was referring to those that hurl insults and demean those that do like relics. You should know that, and I'm sure that you can clearly see the difference.
And my comment was not intended to be directed squarely at you, Shimmi. I'm sure you also know that many have made the same accusations and much worse in the past.

-

ebaysux wrote:
There is no reason we can not discuss the pros and cons of anything and not have to resort to degrading others and being condescending. The issue comes when an "opinion".... is actually a personal insult.
What? You mean like this?
ebaysux wrote:
PLEASE try to read all the comments again and if you do not understand where I am coming from and how CLEARLY I have explained this time and time and time and time and time again. let me know and I will type it again in all caps. bold, and more slowly. Or I can just forward copies of the attacks to the forum administrators who seemingly do not give a $@!&...... and probably because regardless of all the trolling and bullying going on in these forums ....
Shall I infer from this that your act of typing slowly and in caps will somehow stir the synapses of my otherwise dead brain into life long enough for me to comprehend your meaning? Shall I also infer that anyone who disagrees with you is a troll worthy of reporting.

Edited for the sake of clarity[/quote]

PLEASE read what that comment I left was responding to, otherwise this is a disingenuous quote mine and being done with intent by you to imply I was the instigator. The "sarcasm" used in my response of course was a bit brash ..... but if you totally ignore the reason the sarcasm was used, then your argument can not be accepted as valid, nor will anyone benefit from it.

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Post subject: Re: Should i buy a relic?help
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:33 pm
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John Sims wrote:
For me the thrill would be doing it over and above owning the finished item.

Absolutely John, why make your own for little or no money? If not for the satisfaction of creating a unique Strat, better than the original was.

ebaysux wrote:
danagos wrote:
I saw this thread had reached 6 pages & hoped something interesting was being discussed.
Nope, SOSDD :lol:

So you don't read the subject of threads before entering? :mrgreen:

Yes, I did read as far as the first page about a week ago. It was a gentlemanly Forum topic not the Relic Bloodletting I'd expected. :o

Anyway, I hadn't subscribed and it's grown to 6 pgs. (now 7!). Apparently some rudeness has erupted. :shock:

ebys, the stuff after that quote was pretty interesting. Love hearing about technique.

Now I have to skim over pages 2-5 for pictures...hehehe

TVR, no worries bud, I just didn't want to accept an invitation to an argument!.. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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