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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:51 am
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jmattis wrote:
Nope, he's standing on the neck only, it's not attached to a guitar body.

Yes you are right , on the neck only , Sorry



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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:52 am
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Quote:
gman84 wrote:
What about the contact area neck/body in the curved part of them?

This one I didn't understand - do you mean the curved Strat (etc.) neck end touching the neck heel end in the body?


Ehehehe,
sorry for my poor English....yes I meant that curved neck end which is supposed to be in contact with the neck heel end in the body. Basically the force which is keeping them in contact is the strings tension.


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:56 am
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guitarman1984 wrote:
[
Ehehehe,
sorry for my poor English....yes I meant that curved neck end which is supposed to be in contact with the neck heel end in the body. Basically the force which is keeping them in contact is the strings tension.



:?: I don't understand :(

Tu parle Français ?


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:10 am
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guitarman1984 wrote:
I meant that curved neck end which is supposed to be in contact with the neck heel end in the body. Basically the force which is keeping them in contact is the strings tension.

I've noticed no problems on this, either.
(And: the neck joint screws and the friction factor they provide are more significant than string tension here. A neck stays in its place if you take the strings off, but not if you loosen the screws...)


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:21 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
guitarman1984 wrote:
[
Ehehehe,
sorry for my poor English....yes I meant that curved neck end which is supposed to be in contact with the neck heel end in the body. Basically the force which is keeping them in contact is the strings tension.



:?: I don't understand :(

Tu parle Français ?


I don't know how to explain it better, let's say like this: consider the 4 contact areas between neck and body, forget the two on the sides (which are helping the neck alignment), skip the flat one (which is the one where the neck screws are tightened), then the only missing one is the curved one; that's the one I was referring to! :D


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:40 am
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I just a did mid winter set up as the neck bow looked to be a bit much, likely due to the cold and dry air. I was too much so I straightened it up a bit, lowered the action a tad, then rechecked the intonation and made adjustments.
All good, plays great and sounds great, easy bends and no choking anywhere.
Edit: Or so I thought, until the next day. :)
There is still just a bit of intonation variance on the B and G string.
If I tune the strings to the tuner either a D chord or a G chord will be off.
Adjust for one and the other is a bit off.
So I split the difference.

What can I look for to correct that?

I looked at the neck relative to the body and it looks like the heel could go up a bit to put the fret board more level with the body.
But, I hesitate to do it because, again, I don't know if that will improve anything, and I'm still not sure what it is I'd be looking for other than the fret board and neck to be level with the guitar.
In the end, seems it's best to leave it alone as the guitar plays great for me.
If it ain't broke, then don't break it. :)

My Strat has the non split roller nut and a 2 pivot bridge.
It's a '92 Strat Plus DLX, multi color Lace pups.
The bridge is locked down using 5 "vintage raw" springs.
I got those just to hear if there is any difference between them and the Fender vintage springs.
Honestly, either set works just fine.
I'm using the vintage raw just because I spent the money.

There is a tonal difference between a useable floating trem using 2 OEM Fender black springs and locked down with 5 springs.
I had it locked down with a wood block, and to my ears locking down with 5 springs sounds better.
I can speculate as to why that is, but it would be simply speculation.
Let your ears be the judge as to which sounds best.


Last edited by Rverb on Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:21 am
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Rverb wrote:
There is still just a bit of intonation variance on the B and G string.
If I tune the strings to the tuner either a D chord or a G chord will be off.
Adjust for one and the other is a bit off.
So I split the difference.
What can I look for to correct that?


First thing that comes to mind: check the nut height, adjust if needed.
Oh, before that: do you check your intonation traditionally, 12th fret to open (or 12th fret to 12th fret harmonic)? Maybe test if comparing 2nd fret to 14th fret gives the same result, or gives a hint that the nut is on the high side.


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:40 pm
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jmattis wrote:
Rverb wrote:
There is still just a bit of intonation variance on the B and G string.
If I tune the strings to the tuner either a D chord or a G chord will be off.
Adjust for one and the other is a bit off.
So I split the difference.
What can I look for to correct that?


First thing that comes to mind: check the nut height, adjust if needed.
Oh, before that: do you check your intonation traditionally, 12th fret to open (or 12th fret to 12th fret harmonic)? Maybe test if comparing 2nd fret to 14th fret gives the same result, or gives a hint that the nut is on the high side.


+1
Check the nut height, especially if you experience intonation issues in the first 3/5 frets close to the nut. Look for some video in YouTube, at a first glance you can do an easy and quick check. Press one string between the second and third frets, it's better to stay closer to the second fret, then check the distance between the string and the FIRST fret: the should be ALMOST no gap. Check this string by string.


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:01 pm
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jmattis wrote:
Rverb wrote:
There is still just a bit of intonation variance on the B and G string.
If I tune the strings to the tuner either a D chord or a G chord will be off.
Adjust for one and the other is a bit off.
So I split the difference.
What can I look for to correct that?


First thing that comes to mind: check the nut height, adjust if needed.
Oh, before that: do you check your intonation traditionally, 12th fret to open (or 12th fret to 12th fret harmonic)? Maybe test if comparing 2nd fret to 14th fret gives the same result, or gives a hint that the nut is on the high side.


Thanks for the advice. :)
The nut did come to mind, however, it's a roller nut and it's not adjustable, at least not to my knowledge.
I was considering an LSR nut, if I can find one, or maybe a graphtech Tusq XL.

I do the harmonic and fretted at the 12th fret for intonation, and I do that in playing position.
I've done the guitar laying flat and there is a difference in a negative way to the intonation, so I always adjust in playing position.

I think I'm going to go ahead and play with the MT adjustment.
As I was playing last night I didn't like the tone I was getting especially with higher gain on the dirt pedals.
After my setup the night before things settled and next day I noticed I had set the action too low and it was coming through as a very coarse and overly gritty tone, fret buzz amplified. :)

This time I decided to try something different. I started to adjust the strings higher and higher until they would ring clear and true with maximum sustain.
Reaching that point the action was pretty high. It's higher than I've ever had in the past, even when pro's have done the setup. But man did it sound so much better, clear notes in chords and single note playing. And the low end sounded full and round and CLEAR. This is the best it's sounded in years.
In the past the low string notes were always a bit muddy and muffled sounding in comparison.
All it took was to take the action higher than it's ever been.

For me it's still very playable, but I wouldn't mind getting it lower and still retain the clarity.
The neck bow is perfect just a very slight bow.
Right now the saddles are so high that the screws are very far into the saddles.

I've seen set ups where those screws are sticking up a lot, and the fix for screws sticking up a lot is to adjust the MT to raise the heel.
But for my Strat it's the opposite, the screws are very far into the saddles.
Does that mean I should lower the heel?
To me it looks like it should be raised, so that the upper fret board comes closer to the strings.
But as I've said, I've never messed with the MT.

I'll try both lower and raising the heel, but those of you who have adjusted the MT, which direction would you guys recommend I go?


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:02 am
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Every nut is adjustable... :wink:
On bone/TUSQ/plastic (etc.) you work the grooves (and the bottom).
On some locking/roller nuts there are shims that come in different thicknesses, so you choose which one is suitable. On other lock/roll types, you gotta shave a tad off the bottom.
I assumed you knew how to check the nut height (that capo on the 3rd fret, measure clearance between 1st fret top and string bottom guitarman wrote), I suggest you do it.
One recommendation is .010”/0.25 mm for lowE, .006”/0.15 mm for highE (but you can usually get away with less, down to about .004"/0,10mm - IMHO...). Too high a nut will cause the notes on the first frets go high, that was the point in my previous.
If you need to shave the nut bottom, might be wise to leave it to a pro. On that roller to TUSQ mod, consider originality vs modded also.

Now on that high action/better sound question: it may be what I wrote on page one: "Some want the string break angle steeper, because of "saddles higher = more downforce = better sound" ideology".
It may also be that your pickups were too high for the sound you like - so check this first; lower the action and lower the pups, listen if the sound is what you want.
If that doesn't do it, use the M-T™, to increase the neck angle (= raise the butt end of the neck), and get longer saddle screws if it's needed.


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:08 pm
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jmattis wrote:
Every nut is adjustable... :wink:
On bone/TUSQ/plastic (etc.) you work the grooves (and the bottom).
On some locking/roller nuts there are shims that come in different thicknesses, so you choose which one is suitable. On other lock/roll types, you gotta shave a tad off the bottom.
I assumed you knew how to check the nut height (that capo on the 3rd fret, measure clearance between 1st fret top and string bottom guitarman wrote), I suggest you do it.
One recommendation is .010”/0.25 mm for lowE, .006”/0.15 mm for highE (but you can usually get away with less, down to about .004"/0,10mm - IMHO...). Too high a nut will cause the notes on the first frets go high, that was the point in my previous.
If you need to shave the nut bottom, might be wise to leave it to a pro. On that roller to TUSQ mod, consider originality vs modded also.

Now on that high action/better sound question: it may be what I wrote on page one: "Some want the string break angle steeper, because of "saddles higher = more downforce = better sound" ideology".
It may also be that your pickups were too high for the sound you like - so check this first; lower the action and lower the pups, listen if the sound is what you want.
If that doesn't do it, use the M-T™, to increase the neck angle (= raise the butt end of the neck), and get longer saddle screws if it's needed.


One does need to adjust their nuts from time to time. :)

Yes, on the nut adjust I knew that the non roller nuts can be adjusted.
As for shimming the Wilkinson roller nut that would be the only way to do it and I had not considered it before you brought it up.
It certainly doesn't need to go up. To go down, as you said, the nut cut out would need to be shaved, or the nut itself, and that I would leave to a pro.
The problem is if that then affects the other strings in a negative way as you can't adjust for just one string, right?

The pups are Lace and they are set correctly, which is easier with Lace pups as they don't have the adjustment issues that standard pups have.
Strings are not touching the pups, and I don't run the pups very high to begin with.
Even on my guitars with regular pups I prefer the smoother and cleaner tones when the pups are lower, and then I adjust the individual poles to even out the string volumes.

Of all the tech's who have worked on my guitar none of them suggested nor did a nut adjustment. The last tech to do a set up, about 5yrs ago, told me how great my guitar was after his set up and so easy to play. Well, yes it was easy to play as the string action was really low, but plugged or not in it was raspy and buzzy, which was accentuated when I added some gain and distortion. He got it wrong.
That's when I decided I would do my own set ups and learn the finer details along the way. :)

.010" is the measurement I use to adjust neck bow, measuring around the 7-8th fret, capo on the first fret, holding down the low E where the neck meets the body. Some say to fret the last fret.
I try both and results are about the same. I set to .010".

I do know that if the strings nut height is too much then once that string is pressed down it can go sharp and chords with that note will be out of tune.
For the nut, I've read the spec for low E to 1st fret to be around .018 to .020", and the high E around .010.
That's right about where my measurements are, but I will double check this evening.

Your height suggestions are a good bit lower than the specs I've seen.
If I can get it that low I'd try it. But I'd have to shave the wood or the nut.
If I can somehow shave the actual bottom of the metal nut that would be good, but shaving metal is not that simple when you don't have the proper tools. :)
I'd rather shave the nut itself than the wood because if I decide to go with a standard type of nut I may need that wood.
Maybe I can find a machine shop that can do it in a few seconds?
I'll look around.

With the roller nut there is no easy way to adjust an individual string. I have to shim or shave the whole nut and hope it doesn't cause other problems with other strings.
Going with a standard/traditional nut will allow for individual string adjustment, so that's why I am considering it.

I tried the MT last night with a new string change. I gave it about a quarter turn and then adjusted action and intonation. Nothing really changed though and I think I'll return it to where it was before.
Action is around 3/64" - 1.35mm with a couple of strings higher for best clarity.
Other than the slight tuning issue with the B string it's pretty good.

Thanks for the helpful info and advice, and to everyone else who helped. :)


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Post subject: Re: Micro tilt question
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:34 pm
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Lace Sensors are funny, Fender recommends "as close as desired but allowing string vibration", which usually translates as very close to strings, while Lace themselves say 0.170" (4,3mm) which is lower than any pickup recommendation by Fender. My recommendation is: experiment.

Your concern about the roller nut adjustment may be correct - getting it right for some strings may affect others. But, (and I'm just guessing here...) the strings that are those few cents off on the D & G chords are the thin strings, B and E. And (since the thicker strings are less prone to finger pressure) I was thinking it just might be possible to shave a red aunt hair's thickness off the HighE side...
Anyways, via internet I can only give hints on what to check based on the info you give - the final evaluation on what to do is your (and your tech's) job.
And one thing: there is no such thing as perfect tune/perfect intonation on every fret of every string. Not even with Earvana, Buzz Feiten or any other product specially designed for better overall tuning.

My recommendations are lower than what you usually see, yes. I base that just on my experience. Try the .004" or .005" 1st fret clearance (capo on the third) on all strings on another guitar - one that you can experiment with. IMHO&E(xperience), no extra buzzes, better tune on lowest frets, easy to play.


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