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Post subject: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Strats
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:49 pm
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Has anyone else noticed that the round-lam fingerboards on American Vintage guitars are way thicker than vintage examples? I know there's some variation in original Fenders but one thing I've consistently noticed in late '63 onward (Strats and a couple Duo Sonics in particular) is that the fingerboards are incredibly thin.

Usually I wouldn't care, but the reason why I bring it up is that Fender is really hitting on the whole vintage-accurate thing in their marketing for these guitars. Maybe I'm being too anal, but I feel like if Fender is seriously going the whole vintage-accurate route, then make the fingerboards accurate especially when they're a defining spec of the era.

...And yes, they play and sound great, and most people care about that only. If you're one of those people, that is great, because I believe that's the main thing! However, this topic is really talking more about specs and marketing than how great they play or sound. (I repeat - I know they play and sound fantastic).


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:21 pm
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In April I went to a guitar store to try the new AVRS 60th anniv. 54', the shop had a AVRS 54', 56', 59'RW, and a 65'.I tried them all, and yes, the 65' board was IMHO too thick. Back in the day I had an original 63' and the rosewood board was very thin if my memory serves me correctly. I will say all of these strats were really great, and I walked out with the blonde 56', it just spoke to me, still can't get over what a great instrument it is.
I think over all Fender really nailed it with the new AVR series, and am surprised that more people are not talking about these. If you are like me and want to buy a new Fender just like you would back in the day with vintage specs, these are the deal. But back to the topic, yes I think they over looked this one detail.


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:19 pm
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I did a side by side comparison with a new AVRI '65 and my original '65 and Fender really did nail it. The lam board on the American Vintage was definitely thicker, though. Here's a pic of my '65's lam board showing how thin it is.
ImageIMG_0097 by John Bohn, on Flickr
I also played the AVRI '56 and it was seriously close to my Custom Shop '56 NOS. I was tempted to buy it but I'm trying to get my Strat addiction under control. No, really. :)

John


Last edited by john.bohn on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:55 am
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John, could you do a pic of both necks side by side? I agree, other than that detail Fender really nailed it with these, I have owned a number of CS time machine strats and after playing the new AVR series I see no reason to go CS , I just can't say enough about these.


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:50 am
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Hi there,
After we released these in 2012, there were some questions and i went to the guys that deconstructed the originals and came up with the new ones.
Here's what i got---hope it helps out a bit.
*******************************************
Are the round lam boards on the '65 Strats thicker than on actual vintage '65s? It just seems like they're much thicker on these reissues versus actual vintage examples:
The rosewood on the round lams is slightly thicker than many of the actual vintage ones. The actual vintage round lams do vary within a range and our new Vintage ones are at the top of that range. Our current rosewood dimension of .125” , as opposed to .100” which is the low end, originally came from when we did the Eric Johnson rosewood model. We are talking about .025” which is equivalent to a Fender Medium pick. These necks can be refretted a time or two before becoming noticeably thin.
******************************************************************
Also.......keep in mind that pretty much any "actual" 65 has probably been played....... so I would expect to see it thinner.
All the best,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:55 pm
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Thanks for clarifying Rob, either way the new AVR series are the best guitars to come out of Fender(IMHO).I hope you continue to expand this line, I would love to see the 56' in more colors, most of all a 56' in 2 tone burst with an ash body!


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:54 pm
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my56strat wrote:
John, could you do a pic of both necks side by side? I agree, other than that detail Fender really nailed it with these, I have owned a number of CS time machine strats and after playing the new AVR series I see no reason to go CS , I just can't say enough about these.

I wish I could but I haven't seen an AVRI '65 since early summer. The two I had the chance to play both sold before I could give them a second try.

John


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:02 pm
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Thanks for checking in and for the additional info, Rob. Yep, my '65 has been played just a bit. It's a lifetime instrument and it has made me a Fender fan for life.

The other difference between the AVRIs and my soon to be 49 year old Strat is the neck profile. My '65 has one of the slimmest necks I have ever played. The necks on the AVRIs I played were much chunkier.

John


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:10 pm
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I got this from another forum member (I think on Strat Talk?) comparing a '65 Custom Shop and a '65 AVRI. The top, the custom shop, and the bottom, the AVRI.

Image

Also Rob - thank you for the explanation - it helps. However, it's just that the combined experience of never seeing a '63-'65 strat with a round lam board nearly as thick as the AVRI, as well as seeing the comparison right next to each other just makes me wish that the production line pumped out thin round lam boards. I know that the extra rosewood doesn't make a big difference, but I've always loved that really intricate detail on Strats and was hoping that Fender would get it in that range that I've seen on vintage Strats and Duo Sonics, as well as Custom Shop models that weren't worn down (both in person and online). The regular production line and the CS production process are so entirely different and are capable of different things, but Fender is really emphasizing the vintage accuracy thing on the AVRI series, which is why I even bring the detail up. It seems like it would be an easy adjustment in spec if the whole cutting process is CNC for cutting round-lam boards, but I don't work for Fender so I don't really know!


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:14 pm
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Hi StratLovesLenny,
I'm pretty sure that I get what you're saying. In reply, I'll start by saying (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the vintage instruments that the Custom Shop makes are pretty much "what a 59 would be today, if you had owned it the whole time" Hence the "NOS" the "Closet Classic" the "Relic" and so allow for "what that wear might" be on the fingerboards etc.
(*I've posted on this before so those of you familiar--- feel free to skip*)

So with the Vintage Reissues, I'm of the opinion that there are now three approaches made by the three different marketing managers. My simplified and generalized viewpoint: At CBS Fender, Dan Smith pretty much approached it like "make them as close as we can to how they were made" ,which included tooling dowels that weren't necessary and other inconsistancies (contours?)...the "this is how they were made" approach.
Then in the 90's Mike Lewis went with the "This is how they were designed" approach.
So,things like the contours were more consistant.

The most recent 2012 update under Justin Norvell, some heavyweight Fender dudes (George Blanda, Chris Fleming, Mike Lewis among them) went through actual vintages, deconstructed them and made some decisions along the way......one of which i posted on this thread. Also other things like the bridge pieces saying "Fender Pat Pending" and the "witch hat" knobs. In fact, I believe that the Custom Shop followed productions' lead on those two things. I guess we can call these the "Deconstructed" ones.....oh wait....they like "Pure Vintage"!

So i agree that they probably "could have" done it the way you're suggesting, but that there were some decisions made along the way to do it like they did.

All the best,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:41 am
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Rob Schwarz-Fender wrote:
Our current rosewood dimension of .125” , as opposed to .100” which is the low end, originally came from when we did the Eric Johnson rosewood model. We are talking about .025” which is equivalent to a Fender Medium pick. These necks can be refretted a time or two before becoming noticeably thin.
******************************************************************
Also.......keep in mind that pretty much any "actual" 65 has probably been played....... so I would expect to see it thinner.
Rob Schwarz-Fender wrote:
So i agree that they probably "could have" done it the way you're suggesting, but that there were some decisions made along the way to do it like they did.


Thanks Rob. I like the insight on Fender's marketing managers over time.

(Definitely being careful not to put words into anyone's mouths with this...I'm just trying to see if I'm interpreting correctly.)
I guess what I'm still confused about is why the decision was made along the way for Fender to go with a thick version of the round-lam boards. The way I'm hearing it, the thick .125" dimension originally came from the Eric Johnson rosewood model. So, based on the fact that Fender's production line was definitely capable of making a 0.125" round-lam board, it was decided to use the same board thickness on the AVRI series? (with the added player benefit of refretting more than a couple times) Did I interpret that correctly or am I way off mark?

Whichever the case, I hope I'm not being a total dummy by not understanding what you were trying to explain. If it was a manufacturing-oriented decision by not having to spec out two totally different round-lam boards for two different models, that makes sense to me.

(I'm definitely taking your word that the difference is small and is exaggerated by the worn down fretboard, but to the inexperienced eye, the difference just looks really huge for a Fender model that had people actually spend the time to actually deconstruct old instruments. I hope I'm not totally crazy since other people have observed the same thing...maybe we all are a little insane for talking about wood thickness.


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:27 am
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It's that detail that's holding me back from being an AV '64. Just sayin'.


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:06 pm
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Well, it seems like if you're looking for a Tele, the '58 is pretty right on! The '56 and '59 Strats as well.

If you're looking for vintage accuracy of a certain period, the '52 might be a lesser choice...I notice that the dot spacing at the 12th fret is wide, where it was my impression that they were narrow in '52. Correct me of I'm wrong, but I believe they switched to wide spacing in '53. There might be a few examples of very late '52 Teles with the common '53 dots, but usually the '52 as we know it is known for narrow as far as I know.

Wondering if my impression about the AVRI round-lam boards was in line or way off with what Rob was trying to explain. It was definitely an interesting lesson in terms of Fenders marketing, but I didn't quite understand what he meant by the decision to go with the thick version instead of the thinner ones that a lot of post-late '62 enthusiasts are a fan of.


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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:00 pm
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StratLovesLenny wrote:
Well, it seems like if you're looking for a Tele, the '58 is pretty right on! The '56 and '59 Strats as well.

If you're looking for vintage accuracy of a certain period, the '52 might be a lesser choice...I notice that the dot spacing at the 12th fret is wide, where it was my impression that they were narrow in '52. Correct me of I'm wrong, but I believe they switched to wide spacing in '53. There might be a few examples of very late '52 Teles with the common '53 dots, but usually the '52 as we know it is known for narrow as far as I know.

Wondering if my impression about the AVRI round-lam boards was in line or way off with what Rob was trying to explain. It was definitely an interesting lesson in terms of Fenders marketing, but I didn't quite understand what he meant by the decision to go with the thick version instead of the thinner ones that a lot of post-late '62 enthusiasts are a fan of.


Hiya StratLovesLenny,
I don't really think you're mis-interpreting. I don't want to confuse it any more than it may be, but the first thing I'd say is to remember that aside from the parts that i quoted, all the rest is my own interpretation, including my very simplified "view" of the different marketing methodologies (or styles).
Regarding the decisions made----again my own view for whatever that's worth, is that it seems to me that "they" were aware of the differences in the thickness of the lams appearance and decided to go with the thicker one on the new AVRIs for the reasons stated......more ability to refret, a more stable neck, and that the ones they looked at had some variance in thickness. Also consider that "real" vintage instruments are not consistant. They're literally "the ones you looked at", and that's where some decisions will end up being made.......which example...etc etc.
The "WHY" of how things happen here is almost always the question I either can't answer or have a hard time finding out. So if I am brave enough to tender my own opinion, it is just that. My own opinion based on however much I know (or don't).

So, I hope I'm not confusing it more....but that's what i gots.

Have a good weekend!!
rob

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Post subject: Re: Inaccurate Round-Lam on New American Vintage Series Stra
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:57 pm
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Well, it's been a year - do you guys think that Fender will ever correct the placement of the '52 Tele 12th fret dots, and the too-thick round lam boards on the American Vintage series?

It drives me nuts that they got almost every little thing right aside from these details! (Aside from things out of their control like Brazillian, etc...)

Maybe that hope is out of reach. It would be nice not having to pay $3-4K to just get that little fingerboard detail right.


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