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Post subject: Intoning problems
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:05 pm
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Help!!
Is it normal that my 12th fret is not in tune but the open string is? If not... How to fix this?
My G string 12 fret (haha very funny) harmonic is in tune and so is my open string, but not my twelfth fret... I've tried moving the bridge saddle and retuning the string but no difference, twelfth fret is still five cents off...
Help!!! Is this normal or am i overreacting??!! :?


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:05 pm
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It sounds like your intonation is out. The temperature changing, so the guitar probibly needs a set up anyway.

I would not use harmonix to judge intonation. Also, you need to set up a few things first before you get started moing the saddles.

Lastly, you should use a strobe tuner to do intonation. Regular electronic tuners aren't accurate enough.

Here are some helpful and easy to understand videos.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHHepmTX3So
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWpnW8ICn-U
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz9UKX2lcxw

Look up part 4. Fender limits the number of link you may post.


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:06 pm
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paris wrote:
It sounds like your intonation is out. The temperature changing, so the guitar probibly needs a set up anyway.

I would not use harmonix to judge intonation. Also, you need to set up a few things first before you get started moing the saddles.

Lastly, you should use a strobe tuner to do intonation. Regular electronic tuners aren't accurate enough.

Here are some helpful and easy to understand videos.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHHepmTX3So
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWpnW8ICn-U
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz9UKX2lcxw

Look up part 4. Fender limits the number of link you may post.


Thx :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:31 am
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Or you can try the following:

With a tape measure find the exact scale length of your guitar by measuring from the inside edge of the nut to the centre of the 12th fret (the centre of the fret wire, not the fingerboard). If you double that measurement you get your scale length.
Now, adjust the first string bridge saddle to this scale length.
Now adjust the the distance of the second string saddle back from the first saddle, using the gauge of the string as a measurement. For example, if the second string is 0.11" (0.3mm) from the first saddle.
Then, move the third saddle back from the second saddle using the gauge of the third string as a measurement.
The fourth string saddle should be set exactly parallel to the second string saddle.
Then proceed with the fifth and sixth saddles with the same method you just used for strings two and three.
Then give your new strings a good stretch and a tune up and away you go!
You've just saved yourself some $ and completed your own set up!
You should do one of these set ups every time you change string gauge because (obviously) your string distances between saddles will have different measurements. If you just stay with the same string gauge though you can usually just change and go again but you'll find the more often you do a set up the quicker and easier it becomes to do it. Like anything I guess!
If you are still experiencing intonation problems your neck might be twisted or warped but hopefully you won't.
Hope this has helped!
:mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:18 pm
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adjust the truss rod. temprature changes affect the bow of the neck and that in-turn affects intonation. the nut actually moves due to the necks bow. tune the guitar and then check the neck deflection and then set the saddles. simple.


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:15 pm
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Don't use harmonics for goodness sake!
The cost of electronic tuners has come right down over the years, and they're much better at telling you whether it's flat or sharp.

My current tuner is a Boss TU-3, and it's a good and versatile piece of kit.
The ability to set it for flat tunings is spot on too (I have one Strat set up for standard tuning, another for E♭).

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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:53 am
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Let's make a clarification: the 12th string harmonic (= the second harmonic, = one octave harmonic) is always in tune and intonated with the open string - even when the guitar is out of tune and its intonation way off.

In the dinosaur days before digituners it was easier to compare 12th fret fretted vs 12th fret harmonic (= same note) than open string vs 12th fret fretted (= octave apart). The system is still quite valid, you can do it with a digituner or by ear.

Digituners are great, but don't go overboard - guitars don't intonate with 100 % accuracy on every fret :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:42 am
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What about clip on headstock tuners? My understanding is with a strobe tuner, you will get a different reading with each pickup and if the pickups are low or high, that changes too. You see, My Stratocaster is a 2000 MIM Standard that I paid $100 for. I can't seem to justify paying another $100 for a Boss TU-3. Or even more for a good strobe tuner. I have 3 tuners, a snark, which is quick and easy but if intonation is a hair off, it doesn't show. A Korg clip on that will show if it is off and presently, my e and a strings are just showing a tiny bit sharp on the 12'th fret. I haven't changed intonation on these 2 strings as they are nice working my way up the fretboard and don't want that to change. I also have a plug in Korg that I have never checked my intonation with.


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:51 am
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I have a Peterson VSII Strobo Tuner that I pay few hundred dollars many years ago.
It worth the price.
I also have the Boss Tuner wich I paid $100, it is a good tuner for a beginner in fine tuning, but the Peterson is a lot better.

A guitar will not sound good if not in tune. Good tool, is a good invest for your life.


Last edited by stratele52 on Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:22 am
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Stratmangler2 wrote:
Don't use harmonics for goodness sake!

Thank you.
I'm glad to finally see I am not alone.

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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:25 am
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Harmonics don't work for me.


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:50 am
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jmattis wrote:
Let's make a clarification: the 12th string harmonic (= the second harmonic, = one octave harmonic) is always in tune and intonated with the open string - even when the guitar is out of tune and its intonation way off.

In the dinosaur days before digituners it was easier to compare 12th fret fretted vs 12th fret harmonic (= same note) than open string vs 12th fret fretted (= octave apart). The system is still quite valid, you can do it with a digituner or by ear.

Digituners are great, but don't go overboard - guitars don't intonate with 100 % accuracy on every fret :wink:


Listen to jmattis. It's the truth, plain and simple.

Warning: Rant coming on:
If a guitar has logarithmically spaced frets, you can only get a single fret to be perfectly in tune per string. All others will be off. Adjusting intonation is a compromise. Always.

We generally choose to adjust intonation for the 12th fret because it's conveniently halfway up the fretboard, the harmonic makes it easy to compare by ear, and because it's easiest to hear that an octave is off. But after doing so, every fret below and above the 12th will be off. That's unavoidable with fixed frets.

Some high fret shredders may instead choose to intonate at a higher fret than 12th, to get higher accuracy at the frets they actually play. And because a tiny offset at the higher frets is more audible.
Some listen to all the frets and adjust the intonation so the maximum error is as small as possible.
Those two kind of adjustment requires a tuner. A 12th fret adjustment doesn't.

As for accuracy, well, a fretted instrument is never going to be in perfect intonation no matter what. Unless you can slide the frets up and down for each string, that can't be helped.

Any adjustment to under 2 cents is pretty much useless, given that the most accurate harmonic on an equal temperament instrument like a fretted guitar is the fifth, which is 2 cents off at 700 cents, where the 3:2 harmonic the audience's brain is hardwired for is 702 cents. All other intervals you play are going to be worse, with a major third being off by 14 cents from the 5:4 harmonic.
You can detune the strings so it sounds slightly better for the chords and harmonies you play the most, but then other chords and harmonies will suffer.
Then add that the frets are placed at the same distance from the nut, but not the same distance from the bridge, so the intonation will be off too, adding to the inaccuracy.
And, unless you play a steel guitar, the weight of the neck and your hand on the neck is going to detune it more than a few cents as you play.

Highly accurate strobe tuners and similar are a complete waste unless you understand the music theory and deliberately adjust the strings off by specific values for specific strings and frets, and know why you do so.
When tuning all the open strings to a tuner, like most do, it does not matter one bit whether the open strings are a cent more accurate. Unless you play Gadd9/E chords all day, you're going to be far more off by the fret placement and harmony ratios anyhow. A tuner is useful for many, no doubt about it. But buy it for ease of use and dependability, not extra accuracy that does not matter.

TL;DR: Using a strobe tuner is like using a microgram scale for measuring cooking ingredients. It won't make the food any better, but in the hands of an amateur cook, it might make it worse. A good cook learns to compensate as ingredients and recipes vary, and so does a musician.
Use your ears - that's what the audience listens with.


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:50 am
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Even when comparing the 12th fret fretted to the 12th fret harmonic there's no guarantee of good intonation. Harmonics are perfect in theory but not always in practice. Harmonics can be off ... caused by several things including inconsistencies in the string materials and finger crud or other foreign bodies caught or built up in the windings or on the surface of the core wire. Actually they can be more than just off, they can become confused where one order of harmonic is out by a different amount than another order.

In my view intonation should be set using fundamentals only.

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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:43 am
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arth1 wrote:

TL;DR: Using a strobe tuner is like using a microgram scale for measuring cooking ingredients. It won't make the food any better, but in the hands of an amateur cook, it might make it worse. A good cook learns to compensate as ingredients and recipes vary, and so does a musician.
Use your ears - that's what the audience listens with.



You are not wrong.

Before you come a good cook you have to start somewhere.
With a good tuner.


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Post subject: Re: Intoning problems
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:29 pm
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I'm a firm believer in the fallibility of the human ear.
If the ear can be trained (and it absolutely can be) then it is not inherently infallible.
There is a popular notion that anyone can hear when their guitar is in tune or not and it is folly.
All you need for proof of that is a few hours at an amateur open mic night.
We are, after all, mere mortals.

Buy a good quality tuner.
Good ... as opposed to "good enough".
Trust your good tuner.
If your ear disagrees, retrain your ear.

My two cents

:idea:

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