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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:36 pm
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boxbang wrote:
G'day Xhefri, Did you ever try to co-operate with the alleged troll?
For years he's been posting pictures showing the differences between the majority of the Firestorms and these few suspect examples. He's obviously a collector and knows what he's talking about. While his demeanor leaves a lot to be desired, everyone reacts differently to being ripped off. The constant denials and ridicule he received only made it worse.
I don't question your integrity X, but to me , even just looking at the photos, the differences are glaringly obvious. These could be explained away as early prototypes, but I'm surprised it took you this long to become suspicious.
Hopefully you can work together with this individual to resolve this, although understandably, you probably wouldn't want to meet him in person. Good luck. Sorry about your drama.

The answer to this is yes. Many times. Personal emails, trying to approach the fellow in a kind way. But every time I was bitten really hard. from the very beginning I was a accused of being part of some conspiracy and that never let up. Even to the sending him an email through eBay once which I told him to look at the changes on my website. He responded by calling my private work office number and threatening me. Then again when I confirmed, in my mind, these are fakes, I emailed him an apologized. The response was a thread a week ago which Rob removed due to the inflammatory accusations. But then again, last night I emailed him, asked him the try to be kind and to look at this thread. And ask he not do something to have this thread locked down or removed. So far I have not seen anything, or at least don't think I have. :wink:

While the folks at Fender have not inspected these guitars in person, two well known and fairly renowned luthiers have. Both looked at the way the finish was done and said, No way fender would do that. And the orbital sander marks, I have never seen that under a finish on a fender guitar. I have stripped 3 and show one body on my website. I understand Rob's hesitation to endorse or not endorse. Many of us have kiddingly said Fender = inconsistency! :lol: So kind of hard to endorse when so many variations of things happen.

I am ashamed to say this, and I did mention that "want" can blind us, but I worked in the auto-body industry for around 15 years. I worked at 2 dealerships, one time as a shop manager. I ran my own restoration shop for street rods and antique and classics. I have shot a tons of lacquer, poly, urethane, synthol, and oil based paints. What I saw on the original Firestorm finish was way nicer, deeper and more stunning, compared to these fake finishes. I have refinished 3 Strat bodies and I just did not enjoy doing it. But saying all this, I should have known better. There are too many anomalies in these finishes. As far as profits. Yes one could make some quick money. Buy a 1989 slightly beat common color Strat Plus for $500 - $650. Sand it with an orbital sander and fill or feather the chips. Shoot a coat of white lacquer to seal and unify the color. Let it dry over night. Next day, no sanding is needed with lacquer, shoot a few coats of red, let it dry for an hour. Then carefully use an airbrush, free hand or with a slice of cardboard to blow black lacquer lines over the edges of, and then shoot the edges of the body to make the burst. Let it dry for 2 hours. Then shoot 4 coats of clear over it. Let it dry for a week. Buff it out or don't buff it at all, as it appears on these bodies. Reassemble it and sell it for $2000. Is $1350 a good profit for a few hours work? I think so.

The the finish on these have orange peel, drip marks, fish eyes ( finish contamination from poor shooting conditions). The lutheir I went too pointed out a lot of things and I felt like crawling under my bed. I should have seen it myself after working for years spraying cars and motorcycles.

One other factor. I am want to be very respectful toward Rob. He is a great guy and has been really helpful to me over the years. I do have a few things that need to be considered in this matter. And please remember, I ardently defended these finishes. I am 100% convinced that they're fake. Besides the finish itself consider this: The Firestorm I got from tenstarguitars was supposedly from some Russian guy he was selling the guitar for. The over the next few weeks the mr10star sold 4 more Firestorms, with exactly the same kind of finish, that he supposedly found at an estate sale in Portland, Oregon. Then he sold me the blue body around this same time which he said came from that same sale estate. What are the chances of a Russian guy having the exact same type of Firestorm as found at an estate sale a few weeks later? One body was bought by the troll or a friend of the troll, from this seller, which he showed on several occasions surrounded by his large collection of real Firestorms guitars. He said the body smelled like lacquer thinner. When I asked mr10stars about it he said he wipes his guitars down with lighter fluid, and some of these he sold were dirty and that using that cleaned them up really nice. Add to this, all of these guitars were dull. This is common when lacquer is shot that is not mixed right and not buffed afterward. There were several Strat Plus' in rare colors that started being sold after this as well. All had the same dull looking finish. Two that were bought by people who contacted me. The guitars were refinished. No yellowing of the clear coat as indicated when you take off the pickguard on older Strat Plus of a 87-88 vintage. Unusual paint thinner smell, masked neck sockets which were also missing the finish routing that is done to remove excess paint. The plate mounting holes chipping and not clean up as is often done at Fender. And, other than vintage reissues or custom work, I have never seen or heard of Fender using lacquer to shoot any Strat Plus or American Standard Strat, and especially not an ULTRA. I am sure it was never done.

Here are some pictures of the one on eBay right now. Note the dull lacquer look. This is common of all these guitar that mr10star has sold. This seller (maget0) told me he bought it from tenstarguitars. Look especially at the finish gloss and texture in and around the tremolo route. This is a amateur finish. (I can't believe that I am beating a drum here! LOL! :lol: :lol: ) When you can compare these guitars side by side it is like a cheap Chinese knock off compared to a Custom Shop guitar:

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:02 pm
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Any hoot it is a talented refinish job :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:11 pm
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Major Cojones to X for opening this thread again... :roll:

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:34 pm
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With all of the photos that Greenheart splattered on all of the threads, the real and fakes looked pretty similar. I agree with Ceri, that it's amazing this guy could do such a good fake. He could have probably admitted they were refinishes and still sold them at a profit and not risked his reputation. I also agree 1000% with Ceri on the below quote.


Ceri wrote:

One more observation. None of this in any way excuses the behaviour of the Fender Firestorm Troll. He's engaged in a sustained hate campaign which itself steers close to the line of legality and has been a display of outright sociopathy. I supose he'll turn up on this thread sooner or later: nobody should be giving him a pat on the back. He's a nasty piece of work.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:38 pm
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Xhefri wrote:
Ceri, I have thought a lot about the legalities of this. I have several friends who are lawyers and they always remind me in a court case that there is a difference between circumstantial evidence and hard evidence. In this case mr10star could simply say, "I bought these from another person and I did not know they were refinished." Or the other thing is, is it illegal to refinish a guitar? Like lets say you buy a 55 Chevy hardtop from a guy who says it is completely original. After you get it home and start looking closer at it, you find out the car has been repainted years ago. Can you really do anything about it? I don't know. But I doubt the seller would end up in prison! Maybe a partial refund or take the car back and a total refund? My hat is off to my friend in Australia. He has taken a big loss on the one he bought. he knew it was not my fault. Together we were unraveling this whole mess, over the last several weeks.

Hi again Jeff: of course, I certainly take the points you're making.

However, from what you said at the beginning it sounds as if the guy is buying legit Strats, repainting them with a rare finish which is considered collectable and then deliberately misrepresenting them as something they're not in order to cheat people out of money. That's where it turns into fraud.

You are allowed to repaint a car or a guitar or anything you like. You're not allowed to represent an object as something it's not to cheat people out of money they would not have paid had they known the truth.

If the guy told you, "this is a repainted guitar" then he did nothing wrong. If he told you "it's a genuine unaltered Fender in all respects" and took money from you on that basis then he commited a fraud. And, am I wrong? I think if he did that across a state line in the US it becomes more serious still?

Now, if you work through a lawyer and try to bring a private prosecution under civil law you are going to spend a shocking amount of time and cash and almost certainly come out of it with nothing to show for the effort.

But if you go to the police (or your trading standards authority, or consumer rights organisation, or whatever appropriate statutory body you have there in the US) and put a good clear case in front of them then the choice to prosecute is theirs, they do so under the much heavier criminal law, and they bear the cost. It sounds like you are in a position to connect them with others who have bought these faked up guitars and been defrauded, and all of that adds weight to the case and makes it stronger and more worthwhile to a prosecuting authority.

After all, I don't think people should cheat others out of their money and get away with it. And (in principle) the law agrees.

At the least, you could gather your evidence and let the police decide.

And obviously have no further contact with the vendor in the meantime. You're not a detective or anything, just a good citizen.

Worth a thought, anyhow.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:03 pm
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Bringing the issue to this Forum (and others like it) is the simplest way to combat fraud.

If I'm buying an unknown guitar of any sort I do my research first. Caveat Emptor is the rule I practice as a buyer.
It's my responsibility to ascertain quality.

Paypal & ebay offer guaranteed returns. Face-to-Face it's your own responsibility.
Ask questions and demand accountability from any seller.

As a seller I feel that, ethically, I must accurately portray my wares.
It pays off financially with a good reputation and feedback rating on ebay.

I've been scorched on both sides of that coin by unscrupulous liars, it's gonna happen now and then.

The fraud case hardly seems worthwhile for the US Attorneys office.

Let's just broadcast the known names and examples here and provide usable information for the not-yet-informed buyer to find.

How about a HALL OF SHAME thread? :D

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:17 pm
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danagos wrote:
The fraud case hardly seems worthwhile for the US Attorneys office.

Hi Dan. Generally I'd agree. But if I'm understanding Jeff right it sounds like the guy is pulling this trick time and again. That's a systematic and on-going operation to deceive people - that's why police/prosecutors might take it seriously.

Though I'm all in favour of the name-and-shame thing as well! :) (If Rob and Fender are OK with it...)

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:27 pm
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WOW! i just put two pieces together that PROVE this Firestorm Strat is a FAKE. The guy who bought one of the other fake Firestorms emailed me and said Rod of tenstarguitar sent him the wrong hang tag with his guitar. It turns out it is the Fender hang tag, complete with part number, for the Firestorm I bought! Many people do not know this but the last 2 digits of the part number is the color code. Ok look at the pictures below. The first shot is the headstock of this guitar I bought. Serial number: N1027997. Look at the next picture and you will see the hang-tag with matching serial number.

Ok look at the last 2 digits of the PART Number is used to identify the color of the instrument. #37 is Antique Burst! And what do we see on the lower part of the hang-tag? #5-37! And what color do we find under this fake Firestorm finish??? Yes, Antique Burst!!!!!! Ok here is proof this has been refinished! It never was a Firestorm finish. Thank You Jeremy for sharing this hang-tag with me!

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Last edited by Xhefri on Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:29 pm
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X...I would still take your advise on most any guitar especially certain ones, over most anyone else. Your level of honesty with this is truly refreshing in this day and age.

Well done, I Salute you for this post and for those that know me well here, I don't give those out to just anyone.

T2

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:29 pm
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Firstly I would like to thank Xhefri for starting this thread. It's a huge step forward in exposing this fraudster (Rod Essex aka tenstarguitars) and hopefully help warn others of this deceitful person’s practices. Firstly I would like to make it known that I am the Aussie X refers to who purchased the fake Firestorm guitar. Of course I trust xhefri implicitly and believe every word he says. He is not only an authority when it comes to these Strat Plus guitars but an extremely honest and honourable person. I too fell into the category of “wanting” this somewhat desirable finish so I approached Jeff to see if he would sell it to me. I was thrilled when I received the guitar but to be completely honest I did notice some anomalies with the finish that didn’t quite gel but I accepted that fact that it was a unique / proto type finish. I store all my guitars in a controlled temperature environment and that is where this guitar lived for the past year but when I took it out recently to check it (as I do with all my guitars) I noticed that the finish had checked/cracked. This was not evident on any of my other Strat Plus’ so I immediately contacted Jeff. He also thought it was strange so I decided to take it to a highly experienced and well known luthier here in Sydney to have it checked out. His initial reaction was ‘genuine Fender body but fake finish’ but needed to perform more tests to be 100% sure. I don’t need to elaborate as you know the rest but bottom line is, tenstarguitars is pumping out FAKES in all desirable colors and has been getting away with it. I would like to say that I have seen other eBay listings where the sellers clearly state the guitar has been refinished by say Pat Wilkins, but at least they were honest, not like this scam artist. Anyway, I have the proof in my hands and Jeff has the hang tags to prove that both of us are not going crazy. I am prepared to send the guitar to Fender USA for them to inspect it in person – it’s not completely stripped yet!


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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:55 pm
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jkaus wrote:
....to prove that both of us are not going crazy....

Do you mean singly or at the same time?

I'll need to see a little more proof than that!


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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:57 pm
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danagos wrote:
jkaus wrote:
....to prove that both of us are not going crazy....

Do you mean singly or at the same time?

I'll need to see a little more proof than that!


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At the same time! Duh! :lol: we can't be crazy, "singly" as that would be Impossible!

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:27 am
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Hi folks,
just for the record----
just a little something below which i put together to help new folks here, since I find that numbers are easier to work with if they actually mean something. The color number for Firestorm Red was 78-----since it came with a case -778 if it came with a deluxe case (as the ultras did) 878 etc.
Anyway---for your viewing pleasure-----not a bible but a basic guide:
Image

Cheers,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:02 am
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Rob Schwarz-Fender wrote:
Hi folks,
just for the record----
just a little something below which i put together to help new folks here, since I find that numbers are easier to work with if they actually mean something. The color number for Firestorm Red was 78-----since it came with a case -778 if it came with a deluxe case (as the ultras did) 878 etc.
Anyway---for your viewing pleasure-----not a bible but a basic guide:
Image

Cheers,
rob

Thanks for sharing this Rob. You might be clearing up some confusion for some of us. 8) Here is the part number for this supposed Firestorm Strat Plus. 10-95-02-5-37 (or 7-37 depending what one you look at on the tag). Ok the 10 = USA I am thinking. 95 = Strat Plus Series? 02 = Maple Neck. 7 = Standard molded case, so the 537 means it was not shipped with a case. 37 = Antique Burst. In trying to identifying colors of Strat Plus guitars over the years, I collected as many Fender catalogs as I could find. Here is a clip from an 1988 catalog (below). All the color codes start with a 5 prefix. It makes it appear that the 5 is part of the color code! And the Ultra color codes always had a 8 for the prefix number. Now I see that means the ULTRAs where shipped with a Deluxe case. So after 1990 Fender started shipping the Strat Plus' with a #7 = Standard Molded case.... ok... I see a pattern here! :lol: Looks like I need to update my website as I was told something different from some of my other sources. Thanks!

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:08 am
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Ceri wrote:
Xhefri wrote:
Ceri, I have thought a lot about the legalities of this. I have several friends who are lawyers and they always remind me in a court case that there is a difference between circumstantial evidence and hard evidence. In this case mr10star could simply say, "I bought these from another person and I did not know they were refinished." Or the other thing is, is it illegal to refinish a guitar? Like lets say you buy a 55 Chevy hardtop from a guy who says it is completely original. After you get it home and start looking closer at it, you find out the car has been repainted years ago. Can you really do anything about it? I don't know. But I doubt the seller would end up in prison! Maybe a partial refund or take the car back and a total refund? My hat is off to my friend in Australia. He has taken a big loss on the one he bought. he knew it was not my fault. Together we were unraveling this whole mess, over the last several weeks.

Hi again Jeff: of course, I certainly take the points you're making.

However, from what you said at the beginning it sounds as if the guy is buying legit Strats, repainting them with a rare finish which is considered collectable and then deliberately misrepresenting them as something they're not in order to cheat people out of money. That's where it turns into fraud.

You are allowed to repaint a car or a guitar or anything you like. You're not allowed to represent an object as something it's not to cheat people out of money they would not have paid had they known the truth.

If the guy told you, "this is a repainted guitar" then he did nothing wrong. If he told you "it's a genuine unaltered Fender in all respects" and took money from you on that basis then he commited a fraud. And, am I wrong? I think if he did that across a state line in the US it becomes more serious still?

Now, if you work through a lawyer and try to bring a private prosecution under civil law you are going to spend a shocking amount of time and cash and almost certainly come out of it with nothing to show for the effort.

But if you go to the police (or your trading standards authority, or consumer rights organisation, or whatever appropriate statutory body you have there in the US) and put a good clear case in front of them then the choice to prosecute is theirs, they do so under the much heavier criminal law, and they bear the cost. It sounds like you are in a position to connect them with others who have bought these faked up guitars and been defrauded, and all of that adds weight to the case and makes it stronger and more worthwhile to a prosecuting authority.

After all, I don't think people should cheat others out of their money and get away with it. And (in principle) the law agrees.

At the least, you could gather your evidence and let the police decide.

And obviously have no further contact with the vendor in the meantime. You're not a detective or anything, just a good citizen.

Worth a thought, anyhow.

Cheers - C

Thanks for the insights Mr C. Now that we have some hard proof I am going to talk with our lawyer. I have Rod's complete contact info. I have also kept a file of all the guitars in question he has sold and have contact info for those who have bought these refinished guitars. We are going to look at how to deal with this matter. We all should get a complete refund or charges will be pressed. To me this is a matter of principle and not about the money.

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