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Post subject: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:25 pm
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Oh Boy, another Firestorm thread! We are all sick of trolls and debate about these guitars, and for good reason. I would like to share with you the truth about these guitars in question. I can admit I am wrong if i find out the truth. :( As some of you know, I bought my very first Firestorm guitar off eBay from seller tenstarguitars (aka: Rod Essex) back in January of 2012. I was super excited about finally getting one. Soon as it arrived I took it apart and found a lot of gunk. I started a thread on the Forum entitled: Strat Plus DX in Rare Firestorm Finish - CSI Forensics http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=66568 this thread was later hijacked by "the troll" and was later shut down by Brad as things spiraled out of control.) The troll claimed the guitar was fake. Here is the guitar:

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I wanted to be honest about this guitar as it looked like the real deal back then. No signs, I thought, of a refinish as it had quality control stickers in the body route under the clear coat, and the neck socket looked clean. "Want" can make us believe anything. The guitar just looked like it had a poor buffing job by some amateur. When I complained to Rod (tenstarguitars) he told me this story that he was selling the guitar for some Russian guy, inferring that “who knows what that guy did to the guitar.” Hindsight now tells me there were a ton of red flags. But then the troll, with all the accusations and made up charges that I was making these “fakes” and selling them with tenstarguitars, etc. I kind of dug my heels in. :oops:

I sold that Firestorm Strat to a friend in Australia. When the finish started cracking and all the debate came up around it’s authenticity, he took it to a well-known luthier in Sydney, who put a little bit of acetone to a few spots to test the finish. Quickly the finish reacted and lifted. Sure enough it was a lacquer refinish on top of the original Sunburst urethane body. :shock: There are four these fake Firestorms floating around, one which I bought and sold to this friend in OZ. I also bought a blue one, which I called Icestorm, which I still have. This too was taken to a well know luthier in my area and he pointed out all the anomalies in the finish and said it was fake. It was tested with lacquer thinner and the finish started lifting. Now think about this— all of these all came from the same eBay seller around the same time (aka tenstarguitars). The stories that Rod, the seller, had about these was very suspicious but at the time, plausible. Now there is a guy on eBay (maget0) who is selling one of these fake Firestorms which he bought from Rod around the same time. He has been notified that it’s a fake but simply does not care. He is using a letter that was emailed by Jeff Bielke at Fender stating the guitar looks authentic to justify trying to sell it. ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/231265428757?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 bottom of the auction. )

My friend in Australia took his Firestorm home after finding out it was a fake and used acetone on the body. The finish started lifting rapidly. Please take a look at the pictures below. You can see how the body was originally sunburst then sanded with an orbital sander, shot in white, then red, then black streaks, and then clear coated:

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There are obvious sanding marks under the finish:

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Unfortunately, Jeff Bielke has endorsed the fake one that is now on eBay. Again, it is the same style as the two I bought and when placed side by side with a real one it is obviously different. One other person (Jeremy M) also purchased one of these from Tenstarguitars around the same time has been in touch with me and is really upset because he knows his is a fake too. He paid close to $3000. I am out $2000, and this fellow on ebay who is selling one is out close to $2200 on his original purchase. But he does not care if it is fake, even though he email me telling me he got it from Rod the around same time we purchased the other ones. It is the same style of finish. I have a picture here of a genuine Firestorm Tele I own. Side by side you can tell they are not even close to the same type finish. I have to admit it, but I was wrong all this time. :oops: The troll was right (Gulp, I am swallowing hard here!) Here is my Tele with a REAL Firestorm finish:

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Here is the guitar body in question from Rod with the FAKE finish which was later stripped with acetone:

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And here is the real deal, Ultra Firestorm from a friend in Belguim. Note the difference?:

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This is the fake blue one I called the Icestorm. Note the same style of fake finish:

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Beware. Tenstarguitars has also been selling refinished vintage colored Strat Plus'. One guy bought one from him in the rare Shell Pink. It was a refinish. He sold the same guitar to a guy in Canada who contacted me and was upset it was refinished. One other Strat Plus has also been confirmed as being a fake refinish. And there is a another eBay selling in Seattle, not far away from where Tenstarguitars is located, that has was also caught selling refinished Strat plus guitars, one in Graffiti Yellow and another in Surf Green. Due to this fraudulent activity I put a a section on my website entitled SPOTTING A FAKE. See: http://xhefriguitars.com/page2.html#C17 This can help you spot a refinished vintage guitar (at least an older Strat Plus or any older Strat guitar.) SO NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY! 8)

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Last edited by Xhefri on Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:17 pm
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It's astounding really, the lengths unscrupulous vendors will go to in order to fake up a rare Fender. I suppose one warning sign is if they have half a dozen similar rare guitars.

Of course the obvious way to stop the forgeries would be for Fender to reissue that finish. Not that I'm dropping a hint to anyone here.

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:04 am
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Hi Jeff.

Xhefri wrote:
Note the difference?


Cripes. I must admit, it still ain't obvious, at least to my eye. If those are fake then I agree with SK, the guy got very close. I'm sure I'd have been taken in, even with the guitars in my hands.

Feel free to enumerate exactly what the visual differences in the finishes are, to help out those of us trying to judge from photos on a screen.

Gotta say, it seems an amazing amount of effort to go to for a comparitively modest uplift in the sale price - and the risk of serious punishment if caught. If what you say is right then this is a dyed-in-the-wool counterfeiting operation, and that's a crime that gets prison time in most countries, definitely including yours. How much profit do you think they've made, to set against that danger? And since the crime is being committed within your country's borders and so can be pursued, will you be talking to the police about it? You are amongst those who have lost out to them financially, after all.

One more observation. None of this in any way excuses the behaviour of the Fender Firestorm Troll. He's engaged in a sustained hate campaign which itself steers close to the line of legality and has been a display of outright sociopathy. I supose he'll turn up on this thread sooner or later: nobody should be giving him a pat on the back. He's a nasty piece of work.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:42 am
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Great post Xhefri.

Side by side, it's easier to spot the Fakes.

You're right about "wanting to believe" corrupting good sense. It happens to us all.

Kudos for being strong enough to announce it despite that laughable troll. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:58 am
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Makes me wonder how many people own fakes and believe them to be genuine. Might only be when they come to sell a fake on to an experienced collector they discover the truth, then they're faced with two options - knowingly sell it on and continue the deception or take a hit in the wallet.

I despise this kind of dishonesty.

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:32 am
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Wow. Tip my hat to you Xhefri for actually bringing this to light and doing the honourable thing here for everyone.

Ceri is right about that firestorm ninimuggins poopypants. He is a psycho to say the least and is verging on a stalker..

With a bit of luck, he will now get bored with it and go outside to play.

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:54 am
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Ceri, I have thought a lot about the legalities of this. I have several friends who are lawyers and they always remind me in a court case that there is a difference between circumstantial evidence and hard evidence. In this case mr10star could simply say, "I bought these from another person and I did not know they were refinished." Or the other thing is, is it illegal to refinish a guitar? Like lets say you buy a 55 Chevy hardtop from a guy who says it is completely original. After you get it home and start looking closer at it, you find out the car has been repainted years ago. Can you really do anything about it? I don't know. But I doubt the seller would end up in prison! Maybe a partial refund or take the car back and a total refund? My hat is off to my friend in Australia. He has taken a big loss on the one he bought. he knew it was not my fault. Together we were unraveling this whole mess, over the last several weeks.

Regarding how this finish was done and seeing them side by side, one can see an obvious difference. I remember seeing a Firestorm Strat pop up on eBay several times. The reason I remember it was due to the extensive belt rash on the back. But the picture afforded some insight as to how the real finish was made. Under the thick transparent candy red top coat was a thick aluminum looking flaky silver base. This provided a real cool looking depth of finish when the color coat with the black streaks were added. The fake finish, on the other hand, is nothing but a simple solid red base coat with black streaks added, then clear-coated. The finish look is flat—with no deep depth in the color or transparency. Here is a tremolo cavity on a real Firestorm:

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Now note a snap shot of the tremolo cavity on the fake Firestorm I had (with the gunk rubbing compound left on the body:

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You can see how shallow the fake finish is. The real deal has a super nice depth to it with silverish base coat coming through. The fake as simple black streaks, maybe add by an airbrush?, on a simple red base.

There is a company in UK called The Guitar Boutique -UK ( http://www.strat-talk.com/forum/non-fender-s-type-guitar-forum/209542-guitars-guitar-boutique-uk.html ) which is doing these finishes as well. Below is one of there creations. It is closer to the real thing than the fake one provided by mr10star, but still is a bit off as far as the way the black streaks look:

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:09 am
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I'm with Ceri - even once you know it's still hard to spot unless you're handling them in person. Great information, but I'm sorry you wound up on the down side of this experience.

Way back I posted that I thought I remembered seeing a matched set of a Strat Ultra and a Tele Plus in that "ice storm" finish. I'll admit that I spotted a matched set of an Strat Plus Deluxe and Tele Plus in this really strange store in NE Ohio (probably in the Lorain/Aurora area as I was living in Akron at the time). I now suspect it was just my imagination being spurred on by what you now know is a fake icestorm body instead of my memory being jogged by it. I most likely spotted a set in blueburst and was more distracted by this store's "collection" of oddballs like metal-neck Kramers, funky Guild electrics, Ovations, original BC Richs, and even a set of 4-5 Micro-Frets instruments.


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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:34 am
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OUCH! Man, I've seen this issue pop up so many times on the forums and Xhefri I always trusted your judgement. A guy on the tele forums was baggin you out last week about the same issue (I believe the trololol is back). But still, big props for showing the difference, updating your page and hopefully informing others of the issue.

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:23 am
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FWIW, I thought this post by Xhefri deserved mention in the 'Build Thread'.


I nominate this thread to be Closed and Kept,

rather than Eliminated, from the Forum.

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:16 am
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G'day Xhefri, Did you ever try to co-operate with the alleged troll?
For years he's been posting pictures showing the differences between the majority of the Firestorms and these few suspect examples. He's obviously a collector and knows what he's talking about. While his demeanor leaves a lot to be desired, everyone reacts differently to being ripped off. The constant denials and ridicule he received only made it worse.
I don't question your integrity X, but to me , even just looking at the photos, the differences are glaringly obvious. These could be explained away as early prototypes, but I'm surprised it took you this long to become suspicious.
Hopefully you can work together with this individual to resolve this, although understandably, you probably wouldn't want to meet him in person. Good luck. Sorry about your drama.


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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:01 pm
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Hi all,
I would just echo what most have said on this thread and Ceri in particular.

I also wanted to point something out, expecially considering that my guys in Consumer Relations are still getting calls on this subject.....I suspect from the same person.
If you look through my posts in the years that I've been on the forum, you will see that I do not EVER authenticate-or de-authenticate for that matter on this froum or anywhere else. The most i might say is that something "Looks correct". Most of my serial tracking you will note, say (pretty much) "this tracks back to this model----here are the specs to the model it tracks to."

Jeff Bielke's quote on ebay isn't exactly a glowing endorsement although it is more positive than negative.......and I would actually agree with it for the most part. Everything about the guitar(s) in question, "look" pretty authentic. Xhefri's "deep dive" makes sense.....but as I've pretty much expressed to him....I'm STILL not 100% even seeing what Xhefri and his friend in Australia found.
By the way, Jeff B is attempting to have said quote removed as it is being used without his permission.

So at the end of the day for me.....it may be a "fake" Fender finish but everything else still looks pretty good (all the right parts etc) and I still personally like these finishes and even the "fake" ones look ok to me aesthetically. That's not an endorsement and it certainly isn't an authentication....but truthfully....... They ALL look kinda cool to me........I wouldn't mind PLAYING one.....that's where the rubbber meets the road in my book.

Xhefri is awesome.
The rest of you are pretty cool too.


That is all.

Cheers,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:44 pm
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Rob Schwarz-Fender wrote:
I also wanted to point something out, expecially considering that my guys in Consumer Relations are still getting calls on this subject.....I suspect from the same person.
If you look through my posts in the years that I've been on the forum, you will see that I do not EVER authenticate-or de-authenticate for that matter on this froum or anywhere else. The most i might say is that something "Looks correct". Most of my serial tracking you will note, say (pretty much) "this tracks back to this model----here are the specs to the model it tracks to."


Perhaps it's a business idea to provide an authentication service? Send in the guitar to Fender, pay a hundred bucks, and a bit more if one wants replacement paperwork?

I could see sellers of more expensive Fender guitars be fine with paying a couple of hundred including shipping if it bumps the price by more than that...


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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:50 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Rob Schwarz-Fender wrote:
I also wanted to point something out, expecially considering that my guys in Consumer Relations are still getting calls on this subject.....I suspect from the same person.
If you look through my posts in the years that I've been on the forum, you will see that I do not EVER authenticate-or de-authenticate for that matter on this froum or anywhere else. The most i might say is that something "Looks correct". Most of my serial tracking you will note, say (pretty much) "this tracks back to this model----here are the specs to the model it tracks to."


Perhaps it's a business idea to provide an authentication service? Send in the guitar to Fender, pay a hundred bucks, and a bit more if one wants replacement paperwork?

I could see sellers of more expensive Fender guitars be fine with paying a couple of hundred including shipping if it bumps the price by more than that...


;O) *note to self: see what Gruhn charges...... :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Oh Boy! More About Firestorm finishes!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:36 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Perhaps it's a business idea to provide an authentication service? Send in the guitar to Fender, pay a hundred bucks, and a bit more if one wants replacement paperwork?


I wouldn't want to see that happen. The "paperwork" would be easier to counterfeit than the guitars.

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