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Post subject: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:02 pm
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Probably been asked here before. I'm attaching a few picks of my Standard Strat. The depth of the slots in the nut seems a little deep except for the A string. Is that typical? I've been playing an SG and the slots are nearly as deep (assuming because of the pitch of the head stock as opposed to the Fenders parallel head and neck). It seems to sound okay. (note the link below sends you to my google+ photo area. you may want to open the link in a new tab so you don't get sent out of the forum)

https://plus.google.com/photos/11133989 ... OOgzeuWgAE

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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:44 pm
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If you're not having problems with buzzing, I wouldn't worry about it. The measurement I use for checking string height at the nut is to take a .018" feeler gauge and slide between the first fret and the underside of the strings. If the strings too high, you can get intonation issues at the first three frets. If it's too low, you could have string buzzing which could be remedied by either a truss rod adjustment or new nut.
If yours is cut low, but you have no buzzing issues, you can set your action low, until it starts to buzz a little, provided you like low action.

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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:58 pm
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No buzzing that I can hear. I have it set pretty low right now anyway. I like low action. Just making sure I am not missing something. Again, I am used to my humbuckers. So this is new territory to me.

Thanks for the input.

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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:17 pm
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It's hard to tell from the pics if the slots are too low. It does seem that the nut wasn't finished off properly.

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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:56 pm
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Possibly. The music shop I purchased it from is a licensed Fender reseller. They know what they are doing. However, when I bought it I was told I couldn't have picked a better MIM Fender. The neck had been damaged and the repair person had Fender send them a new one to replace it. I know for a fact the neck had been replaced. The serial # on the neck doesn't match the serial # on the Fender tag. So maybe he didn't invest allot of effort into the nut. Again, it doesn't buzz and the action is fine. I was simply curious as to if this was typical. I may drop by GC tomorrow evening and look at an American Standard and see how that compares to the nut on mine...

BTW I put the Fender locking tuning machines on it and couldn't be happier. That was the best 60 buck investment I've spent in awhile.

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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:58 pm
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The nut slots should be at Fret height, the nut is just acting as another fret beyond the 1st fret, you can check this by holding a string down between the 2nd and 3rd frets and checking the clearance over the 1st fret, it should just barely clear it with a sliver of daylight. Once the correct height is obtained, material can be removed from the top of the nut to get the slot "depth" correct, when finished properly the wound strings should rest with about 2/3 of the string's diameter in the slot, the plain strings about level in their slots, or just below the top surface of the nut.

Here is some info from a Master, Frank Ford.
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier ... wnut3.html


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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:04 am
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Greg19670 wrote:
No buzzing that I can hear. I have it set pretty low right now anyway. I like low action. Just making sure I am not missing something. Again, I am used to my humbuckers. So this is new territory to me.

Thanks for the input.



No buzzing = everything is OK


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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:31 am
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No457 Snowy wrote:
The nut slots should be at Fret height, the nut is just acting as another fret beyond the 1st fret

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I beg to differ - especially as a general advice given to the forum.
First of all, I have played quite a few zero fret guitars (& occasional basses) with all frets level, and no problems - so I'm not saying you're wrong.

Still, I don't know any nutted ( :wink: ) guitars coming out of the factory with nut slot bottoms and fret tops at the same height, there's always some leeway. And it's the same with modern day zero fret guitars I know of (e.g. Gretsch still makes those).
One consensus seems to be .010 lowE/.006 highE (0,25mm/0,15mm) clearance (capo on 3rd fret, measure from the bottom of the string to the top of the 1st fret). With these figures, a guitar is easy to play (and probably can take more playing hours before the nut slots wear and you gotta replace the nut).

To the OP's question, I agree with previous answers: don't fix it if it ain't broke.

But a couple of pointers on general nut (slot) evaluation:
- If the strings buzz when played open (unfretted), the slots may be too low (-> get a new nut).
- If you have trouble playing the F-minor barre chord on the 1st fret position, or if the intonation on frets 1-5 is sharp (& it increases towards the 1st fret), your nut slots may be too high (-> Ceri's instructions).
- If the strings 'ping' on the nut when bending or tuning, or the tuning is not stable, the nut slots may be
a) just too sticky (-> add lip balm or Nut Juice or similar),
b) worn rough (-> polish with #800/#1000 wet/dry paper and lube) or
c) the strings sit too deep in the nut slot (-> sand the nut top down with #180 followed by #600/#1000 wet/dry paper the next time you have the strings off).


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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:01 pm
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jmattis wrote:
No457 Snowy wrote:
The nut slots should be at Fret height, the nut is just acting as another fret beyond the 1st fret

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I beg to differ - especially as a general advice given to the forum.
First of all, I have played quite a few zero fret guitars (& occasional basses) with all frets level, and no problems - so I'm not saying you're wrong.

Still, I don't know any nutted ( :wink: ) guitars coming out of the factory with nut slot bottoms and fret tops at the same height, there's always some leeway. And it's the same with modern day zero fret guitars I know of (e.g. Gretsch still makes those).
One consensus seems to be .010 lowE/.006 highE (0,25mm/0,15mm) clearance (capo on 3rd fret, measure from the bottom of the string to the top of the 1st fret). With these figures, a guitar is easy to play (and probably can take more playing hours before the nut slots wear and you gotta replace the nut).


I love how people will quote part of a sentence, here is the full sentence I wrote, including the second part that you chose not to include but which contains info directly relevent to the first half and which may be of use to the OP.

No457 Snowy wrote:
"The nut slots should be at Fret height, the nut is just acting as another fret beyond the 1st fret, you can check this by holding a string down between the 2nd and 3rd frets and checking the clearance over the 1st fret, it should just barely clear it with a sliver of daylight."



No argument here, you don't see "nutted" guitars coming from the factory with slot bottoms and fret tops at the same height for a couple of reasons. There is always room for player preference in any setup and the best way to cater for that in a nut is to make it higher than it needs to be so as to allow final setup adjustment to suit the player. Just as decking a Trem is not technically or theoretically the correct setting for a Trem, many players may choose to do so, it's not a problem it's just what they prefer. Another reason is that no manufacturer only sells instruments just in their local area, many instruments will leave the factory and travel tens of thousands of Kilometers to different continents with different temperatures and humidity conditions, they will endure shipping across country in unheated trucks and sit in warehouses with no control over the conditions. It would therefore be an exercise in futility to attempt a "final" setup on something like a nut where the fine tolerances in question, string gauges and style preference of the player come into question. Compound these issues with movement caused by the previously mentioned environmental conditions the instrument will have experienced since leaving the factory as it travels to it's destination and it will invariably dictate a departure from the technical/theoretical correct values, which are routinely measured in thousandths of an inch.

When you use a Capo at the first fret you are in effect creating a nut out of the first fret and you should not experience any issues with that height on a well adjusted guitar in good condition, the same goes for the nut. In fact with the capo still on if you then measure the clearance of the strings over the second fret, you will find they will be very "close" to the measurements you have given for string Height over the first fret for attaining a suitable nut height.

I have seen many well made, lubricated and setup nuts easily last until the frets themselves need attention and first fret level and recrowning is required which in turn requires the nut to be slightly adjusted lower to retain the correct previous relationship with the first fret.

From Frank Ford's site:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musicia ... ction.html

From Bryan Kimsey's site:
"This is the basic method of setting nut slot height. Hold the string between the 2nd and 3rd fret and adjust the nut slot that each string just barely clears the 1st fret. The distance is so small that I can't even photograph it. It'll be just a sliver of light. "

Image

"The above technique takes the action out of consideration and sets the nut slot at just above fret height. I'm a firm believer in setting the nut slots at or just a tiny bit above fret height. That's the height you're at anytime you put a capo on the guitar."

I guess at the end of the day, all the numbers etc are really irrelevant if the player is happy with the way their instrument feels in their hands, or if they pick it up and don't like the feel, the player has to be able to express their style of music and not feel hindered by the feel of the guitar or distracted by strange buzzes etc.


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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:28 am
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Like I said, I really did not want to start an argument...

But anyhow: I quoted only the first part of your post, because it is what 'alarmed' me - and in fact the latter part of your sentence is contradictory to the first part. (Just check, eliminating the nut: capo on the 1st and 4th frets results in no clearance over the 2nd fret, presuming the frets are level.)

I really don't understand how your explanation on the transport or tremolo settings has anything to do with nut slot height.

The pics (close-ups of the low & high E) in your Frank Ford link show clearance that is close to what I called the consensus recommendations - but are nowhere near your 'fret height'.
The Kimsey page method shows what an experienced luthier can do - but IMHO the "Ceri method" I linked to is better suitable for the non-professionals. The risk of cutting the slots too deep is better limited with the feeler gauge stack.


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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:55 am
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You seem to be intent on cherry picking and re-interpreting pieces of info to discredit what I have quoted from two highly respected Luthiers, rather than reading what both these Luthiers have written. Here it is again for you.

Bryan's take on it is this (direct quote which is also in my last post, maybe you missed reading it):
"I'm a firm believer in setting the nut slots at or just a tiny bit above fret height. That's the height you're at anytime you put a capo on the guitar."

Frank's take is this (again a direct quote also linked in my last post, maybe you missed reading this one too):
"Is there an ideal height? In theory, yes. The ideal height would be just about the same as a fret's height in the same position as the nut. In practice, I've found that there are some musicians whose playing attack is so vigorous that they require the nut to be higher to avoid the open string buzz."

I can't be much clearer than I have been and linked to documentation from two world renowned Luthiers.

My point about the Trem was just a qualifying statement to illustrate nothing is carved in stone with this stuff and using a similar scenario where while there is a documented "recommended" guideline to perform a certain task such as Trem setup there is still room for variation when it comes to individual setup preference in that task, or a task such as setting nut slots "at or just a tiny bit above fret height". Both the above Luthiers are clear on that allowable variance with the ideal being fret height.


Last edited by No457 Snowy on Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:44 am
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I believe my opinion on your first post has become clear, so I'll stop the discussion on it right here.

Otherwise, peace on you.
No457 Snowy wrote:
The nut slots should be at Fret height

No457 Snowy wrote:
(Note: At = Fret Height, A tiny bit above = practical variance).


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Post subject: Re: Depth of Slots in Nut
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:53 am
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jmattis wrote:
I believe my opinion on your first post has become clear, so I'll stop the discussion on it right here.

Otherwise, peace on you.
No457 Snowy wrote:
The nut slots should be at Fret height

No457 Snowy wrote:
(Note: At = Fret Height, A tiny bit above = practical variance).


And we know what opinions are worth, read what both Luthiers have stated, it is quite clear and highlighted in Blue in my previous post. I agree on stopping the discussion with you, I have tried to subsequently qualify and further explain my post that caused you "alarm" but you seem fixated and keep returning to it in quoted form, so it is obvious at this point that nothing I say or point to will progress my attempts to interact with you.


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