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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:16 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Retroverbial wrote:
jmattis wrote:
There, of course, is also the preserving angle.
A '67 Mustang driven every day, or an original preCBS Strat played every night, most likely won't be enjoyed by our children's children's (etc.) children...


+1

There's also apparent ignorance of the long-standing concept of private property rights.

What someone does with his or her own stuff is of no concern to anyone save for the owner and hoarding or preserving it affords nobody else the luxury of preaching or mandating how, when, where, or why it should be used. Proggies may take issue with that but it's still the law in most western civilizations.

Arjay


Legal aspects of private property ownership have nothing to do with a discussion as to why the vintage market has gotten out of hand.
It's obvious that any individual who buy's or acquires property legitimately can do with it as they please. No one is questioning that.
So I don't know why the need to state the obvious regarding private property.

As for opinions about how and why the vintage market may have become what it is, this is an open forum, and people can share their views and opinions.
At least that's how it is in an open civilized society. :)
Those who would render objection to that may have a different agenda.

BTW, I have no idea what a "proggie" is.


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:35 pm
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ebaysux wrote:
Some people just want a vintage guitar and can't afford it. So they get a relic. I don't see the big freaking deal in that. To each his/her own. I also love old muscle cars even though nowadays you can get a car that is faster, handles 100X better and gets 10x better mileage for less money..but it is still not a 68 GTO etc. Sometimes there is no substitute for the real deal. What is "better" is subjective and hence no matter what anyone's biased opinion is the fact of the matter is older guitars, just like older cars are going up in value....the ONLY thing that causes that is supply and demand. If people didn't like them and want them and find something special about then the the prices would be dropping...make sense?

I left a few videos here of a good guitar player on a bunch of really old Strats. Did anyone notice how they sound? Do your newer strats sound like that? If so..post a vid and prove it.


As you say, to each his/her own. If you want a "relic", then absolutely get one!
My biased opinion should have no bearing on that, just as your biased opinion has no bearing on me not wanting one. :)

What is "better" is subjective with certain things.
With some things "better" can be measured.
As you point out, modern cars are better at measurable factors.
Still, one doesn't buy a '68 GTO because it's better at those things.
There is a style and feeling one gets with having an old vintage car or guitar.
Nothing wrong with wanting and getting one.

We agree on that. :)
Your rightly point out that certain things are based on an individuals perception of what makes one thing "better" than the other.
So it's odd that pose a challenge to "prove" that a modern Strat can be "better" than those old Strats being played by that guitar on those video's.
How do you purpose that one "proves" it?
YT video's have various quality of recording, so do we compare the recording quality?
Different players play differently. Can we use playing skill as a factor?

Point is, if you really believe that quality and what is "better" is up to each person to decide, then I find your challenge challenges that assertion.
I agree with you that quality of a guitar and it's tone will be judged by an individual according to his/her own taste.
So there is no need to try and prove anything.


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:38 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
ebaysux wrote:
I also love old muscle cars even though nowadays you can get a car that is faster, handles 100X better and gets 10x better mileage for less money..but it is still not a 68 GTO etc. Sometimes there is no substitute for the real deal.


+1000!

There's the '69 Chevelle SS396.

:mrgreen:

Then there's 'everything else'.

:roll:

Arjay


I actually had a 69 SS 396.....and a 71 and 72. Also has a 64 Malibu Chevelle SS (yes it had 3 names) with a 327, 4 speed and no power anything. However I am kind of impartial to the GTO's being that it was my first car as a hand me down from my dad. However my dad got slick and had them pull the original engine out which was some ungodly horsepower and replace it with a later model low compression smog pig engine. In hindsight I can't really blame him as I would have surely done some serious damage with that motor in it at 17 years old.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:50 am
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Rverb wrote:
ebaysux wrote:
Some people just want a vintage guitar and can't afford it. So they get a relic. I don't see the big freaking deal in that. To each his/her own. I also love old muscle cars even though nowadays you can get a car that is faster, handles 100X better and gets 10x better mileage for less money..but it is still not a 68 GTO etc. Sometimes there is no substitute for the real deal. What is "better" is subjective and hence no matter what anyone's biased opinion is the fact of the matter is older guitars, just like older cars are going up in value....the ONLY thing that causes that is supply and demand. If people didn't like them and want them and find something special about then the the prices would be dropping...make sense?

I left a few videos here of a good guitar player on a bunch of really old Strats. Did anyone notice how they sound? Do your newer strats sound like that? If so..post a vid and prove it.


As you say, to each his/her own. If you want a "relic", then absolutely get one!
My biased opinion should have no bearing on that, just as your biased opinion has no bearing on me not wanting one. :)

What is "better" is subjective with certain things.
With some things "better" can be measured.
As you point out, modern cars are better at measurable factors.
Still, one doesn't buy a '68 GTO because it's better at those things.
There is a style and feeling one gets with having an old vintage car or guitar.
Nothing wrong with wanting and getting one.

We agree on that. :)
Your rightly point out that certain things are based on an individuals perception of what makes one thing "better" than the other.
So it's odd that pose a challenge to "prove" that a modern Strat can be "better" than those old Strats being played by that guitar on those video's.
How do you purpose that one "proves" it?
YT video's have various quality of recording, so do we compare the recording quality?
Different players play differently. Can we use playing skill as a factor?

Point is, if you really believe that quality and what is "better" is up to each person to decide, then I find your challenge challenges that assertion.
I agree with you that quality of a guitar and it's tone will be judged by an individual according to his/her own taste.
So there is no need to try and prove anything.


I take everything you replied with the utmost respect and don't have any refutations. But I will explain as far as the youtubes. Now at the risk of suggesting that "tone" is objective...I feel most of us as Strat enthusiasts and players like them for more then the sexy shape and admiration of the guitars heros that play and have played them in the past.

It seems there is a vibe by some that these old guitars were inferior and that it is all some kind of conspiracy or foolishness that they are so desirable. I have been playing long enough to know that there is something aside from the fact that these old strats are rare and valuable that so many players want them and those that can afford them get them. The videos I left have that classic strat sound that granted you can come close to for far less money then an original 50's or 60s...but for a purist there is something about the tone that I have not heard yet from a newer strat....even a CS be able to replicate. So if anyone refutes this....post a video and if I am wrong I will simply ask what pickups are in the guitar and what amp is being used so I too could have the tone of a $25,000+ vintage guitar for 1/10th to 1/100th the price.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:38 am
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Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:20 pm
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What I find the most amusing about all these modern day threads on classic starts, is that when I was a young man in the late 70's early 80's looking to get my first start, CBS 70's strats were lambasted as being utterly appalling and you could not give them away - yet now in the 2000's because they happen to be old compared to now, they are commanding prices that no one in their right mind would have paid in the 70's :D

What do I take from all this? I take that lots of people are stupid and buy into the fact that old instruments are better just because they are old - nonsense - buy a guitar that plays brilliantly for you - anything else is just collector nonsense

d

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:55 am
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actionscripter wrote:
...What do I take from all this? I take that lots of people are stupid and buy into the fact that old instruments are better just because they are old - nonsense - buy a guitar that plays brilliantly for you - anything else is just collector nonsense

d


Absolutely !

I also take exception to the poster who stated that you can't get good tone from a Modern Strat !

There are any number of recognized professional players out there who are using Modern Instruments. And most of these guys have reputations to protect.

For example, sure, Jeff Beck may take his prized '50 Esquire into the studio, but on the Road, he's playing a Modern instrument... usually one that Fender gave him.

In fact, I know of several pros who purposely use supposedly mediocre instruments on the Road. I know one who uses a Squire (albeit expertly setup) when on Stage. His take: If it gets dropped or stolen from the stand, it's no great loss, and he can make it sound 99% as good as a Vintage or Premium instrument.

Anyone seeking an overpriced Vintage guitar as the only impediment to their achieving Nirvana in their Tone has totally lost sight of the old addage that: It's not the Wand... it's the Magician !!

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:22 am
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actionscripter wrote:
What I find the most amusing about all these modern day threads on classic starts, is that when I was a young man in the late 70's early 80's looking to get my first start, CBS 70's strats were lambasted as being utterly appalling and you could not give them away - yet now in the 2000's because they happen to be old compared to now, they are commanding prices that no one in their right mind would have paid in the 70's :D

What do I take from all this? I take that lots of people are stupid and buy into the fact that old instruments are better just because they are old - nonsense - buy a guitar that plays brilliantly for you - anything else is just collector nonsense

d


I find your reply a bit presumptious and over generalizing. Not everyone who can afford a pre cbs Strat is stupid. Now granted someone like myself would not pay that much for any guitar I don't come off as ignorant by putting down something I can't afford that others love and swear by. Like I stated several times post a vid of a late model strat that has the exact tone of an authentic 50s or 60s and prove me wrong.

I do agree part of their value is that they are old and rare and certainly not every one of them is going to be a great player. But the ones that are working and set up right are awesome instruments and use materials and manufacturing techniques and methods that are not duplicated with a newer instrument.

And of course no one would pay in the 70s what they would pay now Einstein...ever heard of inflation?

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:25 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:

I also take exception to the poster who stated that you can't get good tone from a Modern Strat !



I am not going to try to refute the rest of your comment because you certainly have a right to your opinion and I know my wisdom would not change your opinion. But where did anyone in this thread state you can't get a good tone from a modern strat? Re-read the thread again and let me know if you find it.

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