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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:08 pm
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GilgaFrank wrote:
My personal view is that I would rather play a modern US Standard Strat than anything from the 1950s to 1970s. A lot of pre-CBS guitars are just worn out and unplayable now.


That might be true in some cases but generally if the neck is not totally shot a good setup should make any guitar "playable" regardless of how worn out the rest of it is.

Now as far as sound that also has a lot to do with the amp.....and of course the player. If you watch this video for example you can see this player (Phil X) has no trouble with an original 57 Strat played clean. And to me at least it does have a special sound..just a wonderful fat tone. I wonder if he would sound quite the same with the same amp setup using a re-issue or a late model USA standard? To bad he didn't do an A/B test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV1BnebAGXo

As well if you look at SRV's main guitar it is an extremely beat on and worn out 60s...I think the neck was even busted a few times but no doubt that was an awesome sounding guitar and was certainly playable. I would imagine the fret board was redone so many times the radius was essentially flat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEJh2FFUUoU

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:15 pm
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ebaysux wrote:
That might be true in some cases but generally if the neck is not totally shot a good setup should make any guitar "playable" regardless of how worn out the rest of it is.


+1

My luthier can make just about any guitar play correctly and comfortably.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:07 pm
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A fret job (leveling and crowning or refret) can work miracles.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:26 am
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Nostalgia, scarcity/rarity drive the prices up, regardless of whether or not those instruments are better.
There's also the fact that our society is really stuck in wanting "classic" things by thinking those old originals are better than what you can get in the modern world.
And the price goes up and up according to how many buy into that, and the more that buy into that the higher the prices go.
It goes for guitars as well as "classic" cars.

Are those classic old guitars better?
Better than what?
If a guitar plays well and sounds good, then it's a good instrument regardless of it's age or when it was built.
A '67 Mustang isn't "better" in any testable performance category than a modern Mustang, but some will pay more for a '67 than what they can get a new one for.

Some people want these classic cars and guitars simply because they are rare and because they are worth money. I know people who buy old guitars and then don't play them. They are case queens, just like many expensive classic cars are garage queens.
They won't play the guitars because they think, "It will lose value".
They won't drive those cars for the same reason.
To me that makes no sense, because at that point the instrument is no longer an instrument to be played and enjoyed, it has become a materialistic item sought more for it's monetary value rather than any enjoyment it can provide in the musical sense.

Are those older guitars "better" at being an instrument providing a superior tone to guitars that can be purchased today?
You can get a fantastic playing and sounding Fender from the custom shop, same goes for Gibson. So if a new instrument can provide great tones and playability, then why get an old one? You'll pay a lot more even for an average condition original than you will for a brand spanking new one. If the original is in great or mint condition it'll cost even more.

To each his own, for me, if my choice is an old original that plays, sounds, and looks great vs a new one with the same qualities, I'd go for the new every time as I get all the good for less money.

The thing I very much dislike in the modern market is the "relic" type guitars.
Are you kidding? You want me to pay more for new guitar that is made to look worn out and beat up? Heck NO!
I keep my gear in great shape. I wouldn't buy a used guitar that's all beat and looking worn out, let alone paying for a high priced new one that's been made to look like the owner could care less about keeping his gear in good condition.


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:06 am
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Rverb wrote:
Nostalgia, scarcity/rarity drive the prices up, regardless of whether or not those instruments are better.
There's also the fact that our society is really stuck in wanting "classic" things by thinking those old originals are better than what you can get in the modern world.
And the price goes up and up according to how many buy into that, and the more that buy into that the higher the prices go.
It goes for guitars as well as "classic" cars.

Are those classic old guitars better?
Better than what?
If a guitar plays well and sounds good, then it's a good instrument regardless of it's age or when it was built.
A '67 Mustang isn't "better" in any testable performance category than a modern Mustang, but some will pay more for a '67 than what they can get a new one for.

Some people want these classic cars and guitars simply because they are rare and because they are worth money. I know people who buy old guitars and then don't play them. They are case queens, just like many expensive classic cars are garage queens.
They won't play the guitars because they think, "It will lose value".
They won't drive those cars for the same reason.
To me that makes no sense, because at that point the instrument is no longer an instrument to be played and enjoyed, it has become a materialistic item sought more for it's monetary value rather than any enjoyment it can provide in the musical sense.

Are those older guitars "better" at being an instrument providing a superior tone to guitars that can be purchased today?
You can get a fantastic playing and sounding Fender from the custom shop, same goes for Gibson. So if a new instrument can provide great tones and playability, then why get an old one? You'll pay a lot more even for an average condition original than you will for a brand spanking new one. If the original is in great or mint condition it'll cost even more.

To each his own, for me, if my choice is an old original that plays, sounds, and looks great vs a new one with the same qualities, I'd go for the new every time as I get all the good for less money.

The thing I very much dislike in the modern market is the "relic" type guitars.
Are you kidding? You want me to pay more for new guitar that is made to look worn out and beat up? Heck NO!
I keep my gear in great shape. I wouldn't buy a used guitar that's all beat and looking worn out, let alone paying for a high priced new one that's been made to look like the owner could care less about keeping his gear in good condition.


People like different things for different reasons, that is just the way it is. Now me personally love the look of beat up guitars but I beat them up myself, I don't pay more for someone else at the factory to do it for me. But I also like ones that are not beat up.

Now once you are talking about the real vintage guitars, that is a whole other world because yes, they are expensive as heck and keep going up. To some people they are simply collector items, to others they insist there is something special about the sound and feel...and that is possible for several reason. Just check out some youtubes with a good guitar player on these vintages and compare the sounds to your guitar.... start with these... (granted much of the tone comes from the amp and your fingers...the guitar certainly plays a part)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QykHA5C6Kt8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmeqVcXAnG8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h824_waga0

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:04 am
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Rverb wrote:
They won't play the guitars because they think, "It will lose value".
They won't drive those cars for the same reason.
To me that makes no sense, because at that point the instrument is no longer an instrument to be played and enjoyed, it has become a materialistic item sought more for it's monetary value rather than any enjoyment it can provide in the musical sense.

There, of course, is also the preserving angle.
A '67 Mustang driven every day, or an original preCBS Strat played every night, most likely won't be enjoyed by our children's children's (etc.) children...


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:22 am
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Lets face it, the vintage myth came about because of the almost non existent QC Fender had in the 70s and early 80s, and at the time the vintage guitars weren't all that old, and they played and sounded better on the whole.

Now that's not to say that all 70s/early 80s guitars are bad, but there were more dogs made in that period than many would care to remember.
A really good Strat was a rarity, rather than the normal situation we have today.

I'd like a genuine 62 Strat, just because it would be around the same age as me, but from a practicality POV I'd be better off having a Custom Shop one built.
And I like a slightly flatter fingerboard, so with CS I could order one with a flatter radius.
So for me it's buy a new guitar.

One thing I do not like is this fad for pre damaged new guitars - it looks like what it is for one, and that's fake, and if a guitar of mine has dings and wear I want it to be because I put 'em there, not somebody laying into it with sanders and chains.

The only exceptions I think look acceptable are the CS tribute models, and that's because they copied Rory's or Stevie's or Eric's or David's guitar, and show how the original is.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:53 am
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The vintage myth isn't a Fender thing only, so there is more to it than the CBS quality control. And, the 70's models are just on the verge of getting to the same price uprise vortex...

On the original topic: on the technical aspects the new CS (or other 'hand made') guitars are most likely as good as or better than the vintage ones. But guitars aren't bought and sold based only on those...


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:17 am
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jmattis wrote:
Rverb wrote:
They won't play the guitars because they think, "It will lose value".
They won't drive those cars for the same reason.
To me that makes no sense, because at that point the instrument is no longer an instrument to be played and enjoyed, it has become a materialistic item sought more for it's monetary value rather than any enjoyment it can provide in the musical sense.

There, of course, is also the preserving angle.
A '67 Mustang driven every day, or an original preCBS Strat played every night, most likely won't be enjoyed by our children's children's (etc.) children...


+1

There's also apparent ignorance of the long-standing concept of private property rights.

What someone does with his or her own stuff is of no concern to anyone save for the owner and hoarding or preserving it affords nobody else the luxury of preaching or mandating how, when, where, or why it should be used. Proggies may take issue with that but it's still the law in most western civilizations.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:39 am
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Some people just want a vintage guitar and can't afford it. So they get a relic. I don't see the big freaking deal in that. To each his/her own. I also love old muscle cars even though nowadays you can get a car that is faster, handles 100X better and gets 10x better mileage for less money..but it is still not a 68 GTO etc. Sometimes there is no substitute for the real deal. What is "better" is subjective and hence no matter what anyone's biased opinion is the fact of the matter is older guitars, just like older cars are going up in value....the ONLY thing that causes that is supply and demand. If people didn't like them and want them and find something special about then the the prices would be dropping...make sense?

I left a few videos here of a good guitar player on a bunch of really old Strats. Did anyone notice how they sound? Do your newer strats sound like that? If so..post a vid and prove it.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:48 pm
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ebaysux wrote:
I also love old muscle cars even though nowadays you can get a car that is faster, handles 100X better and gets 10x better mileage for less money..but it is still not a 68 GTO etc. Sometimes there is no substitute for the real deal.


+1000!

There's the '69 Chevelle SS396.

:mrgreen:

Then there's 'everything else'.

:roll:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:49 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
ebaysux wrote:
I also love old muscle cars even though nowadays you can get a car that is faster, handles 100X better and gets 10x better mileage for less money..but it is still not a 68 GTO etc. Sometimes there is no substitute for the real deal.


+1000!

There's the '69 Chevelle SS396.

:mrgreen:

Then there's 'everything else'.

:roll:

Arjay


I would have to disagree...just a bit. My C6 Corvette is twice the machine a 67 Corvette is...I have A/C (that works), seats I can stand to ride in for more than an hour, and 30 mpg on the highway, plus the fact that I can smoke most of those cars right up to 186 MPH and still turn a corner to boot! That is why so many folks are Resto Modding older muscle machines with modern running gear (Brakes, suspension, engines) and reliable comfort items. You can improve the breed, but the price is originality.

Of course you just can't "Resto Mod" a 57 Strat and in some ways even if you could it would be wrong to do so.

YMMV

T2

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:11 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
Of course you just can't "Resto Mod" a 57 Strat and in some ways even if you could it would be wrong to do so.


Amen to that!

Though we've all seen examples of people who tried -- usually to a disastrous end.

:(

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:57 pm
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ebaysux wrote:
People like different things for different reasons, that is just the way it is. Now me personally love the look of beat up guitars but I beat them up myself, I don't pay more for someone else at the factory to do it for me. But I also like ones that are not beat up.

Now once you are talking about the real vintage guitars, that is a whole other world because yes, they are expensive as heck and keep going up. To some people they are simply collector items, to others they insist there is something special about the sound and feel...and that is possible for several reason. Just check out some youtubes with a good guitar player on these vintages and compare the sounds to your guitar.... start with these... (granted much of the tone comes from the amp and your fingers...the guitar certainly plays a part)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QykHA5C6Kt8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmeqVcXAnG8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h824_waga0


I've played vintage guitars and some were very nice.
Were they any better in tone and playability than the many modern guitars I've played? Better than some, but not all.
My choice is to buy a new one, again, my choice, others make their own choices.
So yes, it comes down to what a person wants.

It's the rare player who finds a vintage guitar and it's tone and/or playability are really something he/she values and is willing to pay for it.
Likely they're going to play it, and likely take care of it so that it's around for along time.

A great number are people who seek these instruments for their collectability, which means it's going to cost a lot. It's those people who have driven the prices higher.
The player who would truly treasure and appreciate the instrument as something to make music on, is left wanting cause they can't afford it, or will not pay those prices.
Supply and demand drives prices up. The demand doesn't necessarily always come from those who truly value the instrument for the music they can make with it.
Luckily we have a huge variety of new guitars are much more reasonable prices.


Last edited by Rverb on Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:05 pm
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jmattis wrote:
Rverb wrote:
They won't play the guitars because they think, "It will lose value".
They won't drive those cars for the same reason.
To me that makes no sense, because at that point the instrument is no longer an instrument to be played and enjoyed, it has become a materialistic item sought more for it's monetary value rather than any enjoyment it can provide in the musical sense.

There, of course, is also the preserving angle.
A '67 Mustang driven every day, or an original preCBS Strat played every night, most likely won't be enjoyed by our children's children's (etc.) children...


If a person buys a vintage car, guitar, or whatever and actually uses the item and takes care of it, then it will still last for their children and our children to enjoy in the future. I'm with you on that, if that's what you mean.


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