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Post subject: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:16 pm
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Hi all.

No, I am not trying to be a troll here, I have wanted to ask the group here this question for quite a while now.

When I worked at CBS back in the early 1980's (Under the Smith rule) when we made the first reissues I know that every effort was made to get the same parts and supplies from the same supplier, and build them to the original spects.

I can not say if the newer reissues are made like this or not, but still Let take say a customer shop 1960's stratocaster, compared to an original one, the cost is like 1/3erd.

Now it's been many years since I held an original one, and time has fuzzied it to me, but I have played a newer CS 1960 and it seemed to play just as good and sounded like it should.

My question is, is there really a difference between the original and a reissue or CS model?
If so, is it something your can quantify?

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:33 pm
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Jeffytune wrote:
My question is, is there really a difference between the original and a reissue or CS model?
If so, is it something your can quantify?


Simply put, it's called "mojo".

That said, I'm perfectly satisfied with my Custom Shop 1960 Time Machine "Closet Classic". It plays and sounds quite similar to a slab-board '63 I once owned and the build quality and attention to detail is outstanding.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:23 pm
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I would have to say the CS models are probely more consistent than they were in the early 60s.


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:32 pm
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Jeffytune wrote:
If so, is it something your can quantify?


There's really no way to quantify it.

I haven't played any reissues, Custom Shop or otherwise, so I can't compare them to the vintage guitars I own and play. The other newer Strats I have play and sound about the same however.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:59 pm
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The only thing really quantifying the cost is the rarity/collectability. There are some things they can "reissue" and make the same but there is no substitute for the real thing as far as age. You can't apply 50+ year old paint and you can't use the same wood from the same trees to make the body and necks.... since they are all long gone. And there is no way to reproduce actual aging or as someone else mentioned "mojo"...it can be faked only unless you have the real deal.

As far as if it is possible to make one using newer reissue parts that would look, feel, play and even sound very similar it is not the same to a collector who is willing to pay much much more for an original. Think of it as antique or art collecting......why does that old junk keep going up in value? Same reason these old pre CBS Strats do. Supply and demand and the fact that a true "original" can never authentically be reproduced unless they had a time machine. Not to mention there are probably a plethora of manufacturing techniques/processes that were hand done back before CBS and better or not it still increases the value to a collector.

Now there are some that swear by the old pre CBS guitars as having a specfic bell tone or something that can't be reproduced because the original pickups were hand wound by magical elves and sprinkled with extinct tone dust and bees wax using rare colored special tone wire....and the pots are made of rare earth metals that were hand forged by Norwegian milk maids....etc etc. Any truth to that? I have no idea. I have played some that were amazing and I have tried to play some that I found unplayable. But that is just me.

That said it seems as if some of these CS reissues are catching up price wise...at least what I see them asking for some rare ones. I have no idea if they are getting those prices but they won't ever from me.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:03 pm
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Jeffytune wrote:
...when we made the first reissues I know that every effort was made to get the same parts and supplies from the same supplier, and build them to the original spects...


Well, you didn't do a very good job. :o The newer reissues (post '98) are more accurate to vintage specs, and better made than the first ones. I would say that the newer reissues are as good if not better than an original Strat (comparing both when new), and as pointed out, the reissues are more consistent from one guitar to the next.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:06 am
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So, you say it more like art or classic cars collecting?

I guess that does make since, there is a finite amount of surviving guitars out there and the demand outweighs the availability.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:25 am
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Jeffytune wrote:
So, you say it more like art or classic cars collecting?

I guess that does make since, there is a finite amount of surviving guitars out there and the demand outweighs the availability.


+1

Just as with vintage Fender amps.

The single salient difference is, today's guitars are generally built to a consistent standard of quality, durability, and value. The same cannot be said for contemporary amps.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:56 am
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I would say from my own experience playing vintage instruments, the biggest differences would be consistancy. I just played a '61 Strat and the neck contour felt thinker to me than some others.

I've also noticed that body contours can also vary from instrument to instrument.


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:40 am
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Can one quantify the differences? No, it is a personal thing.

On the differences; yes there are differences.
The wood today is different, the magnet material is different, you can't get the old magnets anymore. The finish is different as well, the nitro today is water based.

I own an all original 1956 Strat, 3 Fender CS MB I custom ordered und just got one of the new 60th anniversary '54 Strats. I love 'em all, there is no better or worse, just different. But the '56 is still the reference. It is a special sounding guitar for sure. The old '56 shows great workmanship, neck pocket, neck shape, everything. Of course today's guitars are way more consistant. The Masterbuilt I have, were done to my spec and I am very happy with them. Haven't sold any of them.
But I am really amazed about this new 60th anniv. '54, what a great instrument for the price. It is better feeling, looking and sounding than a lot of CS Strats I played.

You will never get a conclusion here, there are people which tell you only vintage is good, or vintage is BS only Mojo etc................

I like 'em all, but the old ones have something you can't get in a new one. But it's the same with old and new ones, you got to find THE one.


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:34 am
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Not to mention what also adds to the rarity and hence value of the older ones is the fact that back when they were newer no one really had the foresight to know they would be so valuable to collectors in the future so many had parts and pups changed out and the original parts were discarded, paint jobs stripped and refins, routes and redrills etc...all those facts make for it that much more rare and desirable to find 100% originals. But the bodies and necks and other original parts on their own are worth a mint these days. Heck they can ask 100 bucks+ for a freaking neck screw or knob. A few years ago I got 100 bucks for a 70s P-bass bridge cover that I found in my parts bin while looking for something else. I forgot to include that when I sold the bass to one of my students back in the 90s. It took me a while to figure out what it was originally from.

Essentially, one that was restored/refinned and in "mint condition" and has some replacement/reissue parts on it, is still worth far less then a 100% untouched beat up original regardless if the restored one plays and sounds better. Just like to an art collector an unretouched Rembrandt would bring far more then a retouched up one or a mint "reissue".

I was just reading last night from an article by a pro collector that even if a single solder joint was redone it could lower the value of the instrument by up to 50%...crazy right?

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:43 pm
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ebaysux wrote:
Essentially, one that was restored/refinned and in "mint condition" and has some replacement/reissue parts on it, is still worth far less then a 100% untouched beat up original regardless if the restored one plays and sounds better. Just like to an art collector an unretouched Rembrandt would bring far more then a retouched up one or a mint "reissue".


Oh, yeah,a refinished one, missing some original parts, is worth less than a half of a truly original vintage guitar.

That also makes them the most affordable!

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:10 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
ebaysux wrote:
Essentially, one that was restored/refinned and in "mint condition" and has some replacement/reissue parts on it, is still worth far less then a 100% untouched beat up original regardless if the restored one plays and sounds better. Just like to an art collector an unretouched Rembrandt would bring far more then a retouched up one or a mint "reissue".


Oh, yeah,a refinished one, missing some original parts, is worth less than a half of a truly original vintage guitar.

That also makes them the most affordable!


Correct. That is why if I ever do get to own a pre CBS it will be a "pieced together" stripped or refin...unless I win the lotto.

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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:57 am
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ebaysux wrote:
orvilleowner wrote:
ebaysux wrote:
Essentially, one that was restored/refinned and in "mint condition" and has some replacement/reissue parts on it, is still worth far less then a 100% untouched beat up original regardless if the restored one plays and sounds better. Just like to an art collector an unretouched Rembrandt would bring far more then a retouched up one or a mint "reissue".


Oh, yeah,a refinished one, missing some original parts, is worth less than a half of a truly original vintage guitar.

That also makes them the most affordable!


Correct. That is why if I ever do get to own a pre CBS it will be a "pieced together" stripped or refin...unless I win the lotto.


Purtaining to vintage guitars that have been altered, I was in my local pawn shop and the owner was selling a '73 for about $3,300+. The previous owner added a hum bucker in the neck, changed out the pickguard and added a better jack plate (and damaged the guitar is the process). Looking over my price guide, this seems just a bit high for a guitar that has been altered in such a way that you can't return it to the original condition.


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Post subject: Re: Pre-CBS vs. Re-issues
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:17 am
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My personal view is that I would rather play a modern US Standard Strat than anything from the 1950s to 1970s. A lot of pre-CBS guitars are just worn out and unplayable now.

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