It is currently Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:43 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:48 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
Nicely done! I recall that discussion with Mike regarding the re-tooling Fender's been there with the Jaguar so it should certainly have been possible to build a Strat '24. But it's their ball, isn't it. Any issues with the pickup placement as far as harmonic nodes are concerned?

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:57 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
Ceri wrote:
I've some experience at rebuilding guitar body cavities.

.....and building guitar necks too, I might say. I love this man. Such humility. Probably one of, if not the most impressive guitar projects on the Forums and he calls it 'some experience'. 8) "Some Experience'', it was. Just following it. Ouch!!! :wink:

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 8:07 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
ZZDoc wrote:
Nicely done! I recall that discussion with Mike regarding the re-tooling Fender's been there with the Jaguar so it should certainly have been possible to build a Strat '24. But it's their ball, isn't it. Any issues with the pickup placement as far as harmonic nodes are concerned?


Well, yes. You can't have a bridge pickup placed on the second octave harmonics if there's a 24th fret at that spot, because that's where the 24th fret has to be. Well, not without creating a pickup that doubles as a fret (now that's an idea for future guitars - if not patented already, I hereby place that invention in the public domain).

But while 24 frets would prevent that harmonic from being used, nothing prevents pickup placement corresponding to other harmonics. In some ways I find that pinch harmonics work better on an LP and SG, but due to the pickup position not matching the open string harmonic, the neck pickup has to be farther away, less hot, or the volume dialed back a bit to get the same nuances on open or 12th fret chords compared to a Fender. You win some, lose some, do it all again...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 11:20 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:40 pm
Posts: 17
I don't understand enough to know about harmonic nodes and pickup positons. I approached this project as simply as possible. For the pickup positions i just followed where they were placed on the Blacktop Jag (the donor of the neck) by tracing the pickguard onto the strat pickguard. I assumed if that's where Fender placed the pickups it must work. Maybe one day I'll be at that level of understanding of guitar building.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 1:56 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
Nothing too magical or complex about it.
Say you strike an open A, which is 110 Hz. The string will vibrate along the entire length, like a skip rope. The middle, where the movement is the largest will be above the 12th fret.
That's known as the fundamental tone, or first harmonic.

But a tone also consists of overtones, and higher harmonics.

The strongest is the 2nd harmonic, which is exactly double, 220 Hz. That one causes the string to act like if it was two strings, end to end, of half the length. It vibrates with no movement at all at the 12th fret, and the largest possible movement at midway between the 12th fret and the nut, and 12th fret and the bridge. That's exactly the point where Fender has placed the neck pickup.
The result is that because the string moves more at that point, the signal gets stronger. So for open chords, a Fender with the neck pickup in that spot will have 2nd harmonic overtone that's stronger.
You'll hear more of the 220 Hz tone on top, which makes it sound brighter.

But it doesn't stop there. There's also a 4th harmonic, which is exactly the double of that again, or 440 Hz for an open A. That one will have one of its "nodes" where there's no string movement at all exactly over the same spot. So a Fender will have the open string 4th harmonic overtone almost inaudible on the neck pickup.

Image

The combination of the two means that when you hit an open string on a Fender Strat or Tele, it sounds crisper, but less "rich" than on an acoustic guitar.
And it also means that if you use 4th order pinch harmonics (squealies) on an open string on a Strat or Tele, you want to enable the middle or bridge pickup, cause the neck pickup won't pick up much, unlike on an SG or LP, where it will be much louder with the neck pickup.

Pickups can be placed up and down to take advantage of the harmonic nodes and max points - in general, most guitar manufacturers try to avoid the node points for open strings to get less difference in the sound between open and fretted strings, but Fender has embraced it.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:58 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
Excellent basic review of the physics of string vibration Professor Heisenberg. Of THAT I am certain. :wink:

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:33 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:40 pm
Posts: 17
Wow, thank you arth1 and ZZDoc. You guys have opened my eyes. I googled this and then took a tape measure to my Am Stnd Strat and LP Studio. Both neck pick ups were at the 24th fret. I used a fret calculator online to get the measurement.

In your opinion would you recommend I try to move the neck pickup closer to the 24th fret? It won't be exact but it would be closer than it is now.

How do you locate the ideal bridge position? Is it something like rhe 36th fret?

Thanks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:52 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:59 am
Posts: 5
Location: The Woodlands, TX
arth1 wrote:
Nothing too magical or complex about it.
Say you strike an open A, which is 110 Hz. The string will vibrate along the entire length, like a skip rope. The middle, where the movement is the largest will be above the 12th fret.
That's known as the fundamental tone, or first harmonic.

But a tone also consists of overtones, and higher harmonics.

The strongest is the 2nd harmonic, which is exactly double, 220 Hz. That one causes the string to act like if it was two strings, end to end, of half the length. It vibrates with no movement at all at the 12th fret, and the largest possible movement at midway between the 12th fret and the nut, and 12th fret and the bridge. That's exactly the point where Fender has placed the neck pickup.
The result is that because the string moves more at that point, the signal gets stronger. So for open chords, a Fender with the neck pickup in that spot will have 2nd harmonic overtone that's stronger.
You'll hear more of the 220 Hz tone on top, which makes it sound brighter.

But it doesn't stop there. There's also a 4th harmonic, which is exactly the double of that again, or 440 Hz for an open A. That one will have one of its "nodes" where there's no string movement at all exactly over the same spot. So a Fender will have the open string 4th harmonic overtone almost inaudible on the neck pickup.

Image

The combination of the two means that when you hit an open string on a Fender Strat or Tele, it sounds crisper, but less "rich" than on an acoustic guitar.
And it also means that if you use 4th order pinch harmonics (squealies) on an open string on a Strat or Tele, you want to enable the middle or bridge pickup, cause the neck pickup won't pick up much, unlike on an SG or LP, where it will be much louder with the neck pickup.

Pickups can be placed up and down to take advantage of the harmonic nodes and max points - in general, most guitar manufacturers try to avoid the node points for open strings to get less difference in the sound between open and fretted strings, but Fender has embraced it.



This is great info written in plain English, which is rare on the Internet forums these days! Thank you!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 6:29 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
gtr5150 wrote:
Wow, thank you arth1 and ZZDoc. You guys have opened my eyes. I googled this and then took a tape measure to my Am Stnd Strat and LP Studio. Both neck pick ups were at the 24th fret.


Yes, where I said SG or LP in my previous post, I should have said "24-fret SG or LP". The 22 fret LP Studio does indeed have the neck pickup under the open string fourth harmonic node, and much of the same characteristics as a Strat/Tele as a result.

As for moving the pickup further up or down, that certainly can change the sound, especially if you do natural or pinch harmonics. It's pretty much a trial and error game, in combination with raising/lowering the pickup poles to get the best result.

Sometimes I wish there were a guitar where a pickup was on rails, and you could use a whammy bar or other quick method of moving it up and down. (Another idea I don't know whether is patented, and if it isn't, I hereby place it in the public domain). But. Squealies, man. Squealies.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 8:02 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
[quote="arth1Sometimes I wish there were a guitar where a pickup was on rails, and you could use a whammy bar or other quick method of moving it up and down. (Another idea I don't know whether is patented, and if it isn't, I hereby place it in the public domain). But. Squealies, man. Squealies.[/quote]

DeArmond preceded you by over half a century on that one. He was famous for a series of attachable pickups for arch top acoustics. The pickup ran on a bar which was designed with a cross-piece that could be clamped to the strings behind the bridge. There were all kinds of themes and variations of that design. Couldn't manage to upload a pic, but their model 400 is an example. That type of pickup application was the first I used to electrify my Harmony archtop. I later bought two mountable pickups which came with volume and tone controls, dissambled everything, drilled some holes in guitar top either side of the lower F-hole, mounted the pickups at the neck and the bridge, rewired everything with a rotary switch and.....voila!!
That's what ya did in the pre-Squier days of Fender when a Danelectro guitar was still beyond reach.

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:47 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:40 pm
Posts: 17
I finally decided to move the neck pickup as close to the 24th fret position as possible. I left a sliver of wood between the neck heel and the pickup rout. I used a dremmel. I plan to cover the gap with white electrical tape until I cut a new pickguard. It sounds slightly different, but I wouldn't say it sounds better. The placement looks better closer to the neck.

Here are some photos.

Image
Image
Image
Image


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:24 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 12:45 pm
Posts: 1169
arth1 wrote:
Nothing too magical or complex about it.
Say you strike an open A, which is 110 Hz. The string will vibrate along the entire length, like a skip rope. The middle, where the movement is the largest will be above the 12th fret.
That's known as the fundamental tone, or first harmonic.

But a tone also consists of overtones, and higher harmonics.

The strongest is the 2nd harmonic, which is exactly double, 220 Hz. That one causes the string to act like if it was two strings, end to end, of half the length. It vibrates with no movement at all at the 12th fret, and the largest possible movement at midway between the 12th fret and the nut, and 12th fret and the bridge. That's exactly the point where Fender has placed the neck pickup.
The result is that because the string moves more at that point, the signal gets stronger. So for open chords, a Fender with the neck pickup in that spot will have 2nd harmonic overtone that's stronger.
You'll hear more of the 220 Hz tone on top, which makes it sound brighter.

But it doesn't stop there. There's also a 4th harmonic, which is exactly the double of that again, or 440 Hz for an open A. That one will have one of its "nodes" where there's no string movement at all exactly over the same spot. So a Fender will have the open string 4th harmonic overtone almost inaudible on the neck pickup.

Image

The combination of the two means that when you hit an open string on a Fender Strat or Tele, it sounds crisper, but less "rich" than on an acoustic guitar.
And it also means that if you use 4th order pinch harmonics (squealies) on an open string on a Strat or Tele, you want to enable the middle or bridge pickup, cause the neck pickup won't pick up much, unlike on an SG or LP, where it will be much louder with the neck pickup.

Pickups can be placed up and down to take advantage of the harmonic nodes and max points - in general, most guitar manufacturers try to avoid the node points for open strings to get less difference in the sound between open and fretted strings, but Fender has embraced it.


Seems to me that none of this matters except on open strings and strings fretted at harmonic points.

_________________
In my opinion Leo Fender had essentially perfected the guitar amplifier by 1964.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 24" Scale Strat Build
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:38 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
[quote="mhowell]Seems to me that none of this matters except on open strings and strings fretted at harmonic points.[/quote]
Paul Reed Smith could be the final arbiter of this. They've done a '24' for years now and the guitar has sported a different breed of pickup from the others in the line.

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: