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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:05 am
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stratele52 wrote:
noel wrote:
stratele52 wrote:
Noel ,

Just need a good set up by a qualified luthier . Fender guitar never buzz.


I did go check out 3 Fender American Standards at Guitar center, and one used Jeff Beck model and all did buzz in places, but they likely had not gone thru the setup procedure.



What do you want to say ? All Fender guitar alway buzz ? Sorry but you are wrong .

IMO not many guitar in store are well set up .


I said: 'they likely had not gone thru the setup procedure...'


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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:16 am
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stratele52 wrote:
Noel ,

Just need a good set up by a qualified luthier . Fender guitar never buzz.


And moreover, all guitars can buzz if set up improperly, and some will buzz even when 'setup' properly but have not had more extreme setup measures taken such as plekking or manual fret leveling to resolve less than perfect manufacturing. The statement 'Fender guitar never buzz' is categorically false!


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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:07 pm
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I'd start with the neck check - even Fender necks can warp to a propeller shape (but more I'd suspect the frets - high/low frets cause buzz). Anyways, when I have a problem case at hand, I always start from zero and check everything.

The shimming is OK, if the diagnose is faulty neck angle - otherwise you just may be hiding the real cause. Neck, nut, frets, saddles... all can cause buzz (heck, one time I had a piece of string inside the bridge cavity, and did multiple setups before I found it :mrgreen: )

[BTW, you say you shim "against" the microtilt direction: (again, the obvious) so is your microtilt fully loosened, and did you check that the neck plate screws are tight?]

And then, to comfort a little: they used to say that if you can't hear the buzz through the amp, there is no buzz.


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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:44 pm
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a subject covered many times, but always worth a review.
First....playing style. If you have a heavy touch, the action should be a bit higher. Light touch, you can get away with a bit lower than spec most of the time.
Neck relief.....there should be a very slight bow (very) in the neck. The posted specs cover that.

If the buzz occurs played open......it's likely the nut.
If the buzz occurs at the low end......neck is likely too straight (overbow).
If the buzz occurs on the high end.....neck likely has too much relief (underbow or backbow)
Within those---if the neck is warped or twisted....well there ya go..its gonna buzz.

If the buzz occurs on specific strings at specific frets, it could be low or high frets.

The use of a Plek for maintenance (fret check/ level/polish) will not void the warranty.

Hope that helps a little bit.

All the best,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:52 pm
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jmattis wrote:
I'd start with the neck check - even Fender necks can warp to a propeller shape (but more I'd suspect the frets - high/low frets cause buzz). Anyways, when I have a problem case at hand, I always start from zero and check everything.

The shimming is OK, if the diagnose is faulty neck angle - otherwise you just may be hiding the real cause. Neck, nut, frets, saddles... all can cause buzz (heck, one time I had a piece of string inside the bridge cavity, and did multiple setups before I found it :mrgreen: )

[BTW, you say you shim "against" the microtilt direction: (again, the obvious) so is your microtilt fully loosened, and did you check that the neck plate screws are tight?]

And then, to comfort a little: they used to say that if you can't hear the buzz through the amp, there is no buzz.


Great thanks for those recommendations. My sense is that the neck angle intervention may have to do w/ something (fret/warp/anything) in the actual neck that makes it impossible to set up normally. I think using that fix to fix a different cause is only a temporary measure for sure until I can get some better eyes on the issue. Yes, the hex bolt was loosed first on the shimming issue. The buzz is clearly hearable thru the amp as well. I'm seriously considering taking it to SFGuitars next time in the Bay Area and letting them do the full treatment to it including plekking if indicated. Opinions on plekking?


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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:01 pm
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Rob Schwarz-Fender wrote:
a subject covered many times, but always worth a review.
First....playing style. If you have a heavy touch, the action should be a bit higher. Light touch, you can get away with a bit lower than spec most of the time.
Neck relief.....there should be a very slight bow (very) in the neck. The posted specs cover that.

If the buzz occurs played open......it's likely the nut.
If the buzz occurs at the low end......neck is likely too straight (overbow).
If the buzz occurs on the high end.....neck likely has too much relief (underbow or backbow)
Within those---if the neck is warped or twisted....well there ya go..its gonna buzz.

If the buzz occurs on specific strings at specific frets, it could be low or high frets.

The use of a Plek for maintenance (fret check/ level/polish) will not void the warranty.

Hope that helps a little bit.

All the best,
rob


Great, thanks Rob. Right now when I put relief to .010 the best action I could dial in w/ saddles was 6.5/64th, and that for my style is intolerable. With the very thin shim I put in opposite the micro-tilt adjustment seems to have allowed me to get down very close to 5/64th which is good enough but not quite ideal for me. Good to know about Plek.

Rob--given what I've described, what should I do: have it evaluated for a warranty change? Or, keep working w/ it for fret check/level/polish? And the real question posed is quite simply: when I follow the Fender spec setup for this guitar, the best action I can get is 6.5/64ths w/ the stock .009-.042 strings while still maintaining acceptably low buzz. Is it typical for new American Strats to be SET TO SPEC, w/ shipped strings, and be able to get to 4/64ths action which is the spec for that particular 9.5" radius neck? If so, something's definitely amiss, or so it seems.


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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:26 pm
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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:31 pm
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Hi noel,
It sounds like you did your best to get it not only where you want it to be, but also within the posted specs. Although I'm going off the top of my head here.....since i haven't actually been an inspector for quite some time....but i think I'm correct in my opinion that factory set-ups are typically mid-spec. Add to that some possible time in our warehouse, then add to that some possible time in a dealerships stock and you may end up with some "drift". So, i actually, yes, would recommend having it evaluated at an authorized Fender Service Center and hearing what they have to say. "seems to know" isn't good enough. A good tech should be able to tell you exactly what is going on with your guitar, how it's playing, and why it's playing (or not) the way it is.....and that includes "dude, everything is fine...quit windmilling." ;O).....and they should actually be able to have a good idea without ever actually "working" on it.
"Evaluating" should be just that....just like an auto-shop. If they say it needs a tune-up....and that's all......it should oughtta play after you're done paying, ya know?
Keep us posted.

All the best,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:57 pm
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Rob Schwarz-Fender wrote:
Hi noel,
So, i actually, yes, would recommend having it evaluated at an authorized Fender Service Center and hearing what they have to say. "seems to know" isn't good enough. A good tech should be able to tell you exactly what is going on with your guitar, how it's playing, and why it's playing (or not) the way it is.....and that includes "dude, everything is fine...quit windmilling." ;O).....and they should actually be able to have a good idea without ever actually "working" on it.
"Evaluating" should be just that....just like an auto-shop. If they say it needs a tune-up....and that's all......it should oughtta play after you're done paying, ya know?
Keep us posted.

All the best,
rob


Interesting you should make that comment because the store manager who is not a repair tech pretty much said he's 'never seen a Strat that doesn't buzz'. I did have their (Guitar Center's) Fender certified tech do the setup but it was really done poorly--but as I say I think he rushed it out the door as I wanted to take it home for the weekend. He got rid of the low fret buzz which came from back-bow but then dialed in action and by then all strings were hitting the bridge end of the neck terribly when you press on any string/fret from about 12 on up! Just awful! So thankfully I went back and tried my last step of getting the opposite effect of micro-tilt, just a tiny bit was enough to lowered the highest frets and the guitar is as I say close enough--about 5.2/64th I'm still going to check out SFGuitar which does Plek and they have a good rep for really doing a great job. I'm guessing at this time maybe only the final fret leveling will be needed to dial down action that other tiny bit. Might as well I really like this guitar!

Cheers and thank you very much for the solid advice ;o)


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Post subject: Re: Action <6/64th at the 17th w/ minimal buzz on .009-.042
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:10 am
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noel wrote:
Interesting you should make that comment because the store manager who is not a repair tech pretty much said he's 'never seen a Strat that doesn't buzz'. I did have their (Guitar Center's) Fender certified tech do the setup but it was really done poorly--but as I say I think he rushed it out the door as I wanted to take it home for the weekend.


I think you may be putting Rob in a position here - he can't very well publicly criticize one of Fender's partners.
But since I don't work for Fender, and am usually more critical of Fender than most here, I'll say straight out that if the store manager said that, he should stop saying things. That's bovine digested grass of the moister kind. Fender Stratocasters are better than most. If all strats buzz by the time the store manager sees them, he really needs to educate whoever makes them buzz before he gets his hands on them.

You can get almost all electric guitars, strats or not, buzz free (without resorting to Harmony action) with simple setup. A few may need some extra attention. Which a store selling guitars should be able to give.


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