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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:08 pm
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andrew998 wrote:
Not in solid bodies however, regardless of resonance, the wood hardly vibrates and has no effect. I will challenge anybody on that.

Challenge accepted.

Crank your amp up. Palm the strings. Pinch a tuning fork and hold it against the bridge.
Where is the sound coming out of your amp coming from? Magic elves?

It may not be loud, but it's definitely there, coloring the sound. And when you stand in front of the amp, it picks up quite a bit of sound. Acoustic feedback is a reality, and how that sounds depend on many factors, one of them being the resonance of the wood.


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:54 pm
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The only sound that can come from the amp has to be induced through the pickups. There is no other medium it can come from. Vibrating the wood in some way could result in an audible tone in air but it has to go through a microphone or something in order to come out of the amp.

I'm sorry, your experiment is not valid.

On a solid body guitar, the wood body actually absorbs the vibration and gives back nothing. Thats why the acoustic volume is so low on a solid body guitar. Its being damped out. The amplified sound you get when using an amp results from the vibrating string disturbing the magnetic field of the pickup which produces an electrical signal. The solid body wood has no effect on that.

Here, give a blues boy an acoustic guitar in a small auditorium. Let him play a C chord. You can hear it quite well everywhere in the room. Now give him an un-amplified Strat and you will hear nothing becaue the wood of the solid body guitar is absorbing almost all of the audible sound it makes, but the pickups will be working just fine in the electromagnetic world which cares nothing about what the wood is doing or not doing, it is responding to the movement of the string through the magnetic field.


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:09 pm
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Where is the energy that vibrating the wood come from? Cause in your world it doesn't appear to be coming from the strings.


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:21 pm
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I'm not sure I understsnd your question. However, the vibration of the wood affects the audio sound the guitar makes. It can affect the volume and the tone as well. The solid body absorbs most of that audio reducing it to barely audible. But, the string moving through the magnetic field of the pups produces the elcectrical signal that is amplified. Those are 2 differenct things that have no effect on each other.

Maybe I could clear this up a little by saying, yes the wood affects the tone but only in the audible world and not in the amplified world. Are we ok with that?


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:49 pm
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andrew998 wrote:
The only sound that can come from the amp has to be induced through the pickups. There is no other medium it can come from. Vibrating the wood in some way could result in an audible tone in air but it has to go through a microphone or something in order to come out of the amp.

I'm sorry, your experiment is not valid.

You're not invalidating it - you're simply denying, without backing up your denial with any form of explanation whatsoever.

You're not answering the question of how the sound gets there.
Or rather, you're answering it, but not realizing that you are.
Of course the sound comes from a signal generated by the pickups. The question is how it gets there. The answer isn't magic elves, but resonance.

What you fail to either understand or take into account is that when the wood vibrates, the pickups vibrate too. And what causes sound isn't the strings vibrating, but the distance of the field between the pickup magnets and the strings[*] changing.
When the strings vibrate, that distance changes, which produces an electric current.
When the pickups vibrate, that distance changes too, which also produces an electric current - exactly as large as if the strings had been vibrating the same amount, as per Maxwell.
This electric signal is fed to the amp, and out comes sound.

Which you can test and hear for yourself. Vibrate the guitar, and the amp produces sound. If you deny this, we have nothing further to talk about.

How microphonic the pickups are depends on the guitar. Some resonate more, some less. But unless you have a marble slab guitar, it will resonate. You get acoustic feedback if you play loud enough, even at a distance too far from the speaker for the magnetic field from it to be detectable - this is because the large surface of the guitar resonates, and transfers the vibrations into the pickups and strings. The strings don't have enough surface area to be affected noticeably by the sound waves, but the guitar does.

[*]: Or other nearby paramagnetic sources.


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:58 pm
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andrew998 wrote:
Maybe I could clear this up a little by saying, yes the wood affects the tone but only in the audible world and not in the amplified world. Are we ok with that?


Nope !

Do some actual research and I think you'll arrive at a different conclusion.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:05 pm
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andrew998 wrote:
...Thats why the acoustic volume is so low on a solid body guitar...


There you go, no pups involved in that sound whatsoever. Hmmmm, where do we get acoustic volume in an electric, and why do some electrics have more acoustic volume than others? Unless your body is numb, you can easily feel the string vibrations through the body of most any electric on your ribs as you play acoustically. Put your ear to the horn on an electric and strum the strings. If you can't hear the sound amplified, then that explains why you don't understand. :wink:

Good job!

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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:54 am
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Here is an interesting scientific study. I tend to agree with it. Unplugged the wood colors the tone. Plugged-in the wood does little in coloring the tone.

http://www.stormriders.com/guitar/telecaster/guitar_wood.pdf

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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:59 am
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Dense vs porous wood still has a big effect on sustain in an electric guitar regardless of whether it is electrified or not.

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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:29 pm
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Here is a white paper (posted above by Xhefri) that has performed some experiments on this subject. See if there is anything you disagree with in it.

http://www.stormriders.com/guitar/telec ... r_wood.pdf

When the string vibrates in front of the pups, it does so in a "sine wave" fashion, oscillating back and forth. In order for the wood to have an effect on tone, it would have to alter that shape to something else. Like the way you create pinch harmonics for example. Of course it has no mechanism for doing that, the string continues to vibrate in sine wave fashion and therefore the wood does not affect the amplified tone. It only affects the acoustic tone.

If you took the pups and electronics out of the Strat and put them into an identical solid steel body, the amplified tone would be essentially the same in both cases. I'm sorry for debunking the age-old myth and hype, just deal with it. Many thanks to Xhefri.


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:38 pm
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You do realise the debunk debunkers will point out how limited any given scientific test is. Unless it supports their point of view.

You're on a hiding to nothing here on a guitar forum. Religion has far less evidence to support its claims. Look how many 100s of millions dig those myths...


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:42 pm
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Drubbing wrote:
You do realise the debunk debunkers will point out how limited any given scientific test is. Unless it supports their point of view.

You're on a hiding to nothing here on a guitar forum. Religion has far less evidence to support its claims. Look how many 100s of millions dig those myths...



Yes, I know what you are saying but sometimes its difficult to keep your opinions silent.


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:01 pm
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Drubbing wrote:
You do realise the debunk debunkers will point out how limited any given scientific test is. Unless it supports their point of view.


This is why I pretty much stay away from the tone wood debates. I have read a lot of them on this Forum and others. Google "Guitar Tone Wood" and you will find endless debates and discussions. I do enjoy looking at something a bit more scientific than "I think." The study presented in the link quoted above is interesting. The blue and pink lines represent waveforms on the charts for a magnetic pickup (left charts) coming from tests made on ash and alder. They almost exactly are on top of each other showing very little variation. On the other hand, using acoustic amplification shows a lot more differences in the waveforms between the two woods.

I think there's a certain degree of mystery behind all. :shock: :shock: Like with a Strat, you can hear the springs if you pick them when you have your hands muting the strings. I know there's still some kind of string resonance that must be going on for the pickups to make sounds through the pickups. magnetic pickups are not microphones. One person on this Forum pointed out that scale length also really affects the tone and there's a difference between most Gibson and Fender guitars in this regard. But I honestly do think that guitar manufacturers put a lot more hype into all this for sales than the actual tonal differences made. Enough said because these debates will go on and on and then people's personal emotions and feelings get involved, and then this wonderful hobby we have all of a sudden isn't quite so fun! :wink:

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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:19 pm
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andrew998 wrote:
Yes, I know what you are saying but sometimes its difficult to keep your opinions silent.


And that's all it is. You're not going to change anyone else with yours.

But these debates are old and boring, guitar forums are full of them, they just cycle around, and everyone just takes potshots.

If everyone put all the time they spend on tone wood debates and the 'science' of how the damn thing makes a noise, into actually playing, they'd make a damn better noise with it.


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Post subject: Re: What are the main differences between Squir and Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:55 pm
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Drubbing wrote:
andrew998 wrote:
Yes, I know what you are saying but sometimes its difficult to keep your opinions silent.


And that's all it is. You're not going to change anyone else with yours.

But these debates are old and boring, guitar forums are full of them, they just cycle around, and everyone just takes potshots.

If everyone put all the time they spend on tone wood debates and the 'science' of how the damn thing makes a noise, into actually playing, they'd make a damn better noise with it.

+1

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