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Post subject: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:13 am
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Hi,

First post.

I am getting close to the end of a long-ish process of getting my strat out of the nineties. I have replaced the pickups, added a tortoise shell pick guard, replaced the bridge, and now all I have left to do is replace the nut. It's metal - and I can't stand it. But the problem is, that it's wider than a standard nut. So I will need to do some sanding and shaping of the neck as it meets the headstock to get rid of the "shelf" that will be left once I install a bone nut. I have done a fair amount of repair, but not so much finish work.

Is it possible for me to do it myself? Is it a nitrocellulose finish? Can I use a Stew Mac marker pen thingy to get what I need done? http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Finishi ... &xsr=31537

Thanks for any tips you might have - I'd like it to look good.


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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:07 am
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Hi and welcome.

Does your Strat have the LSR roller nut or the Wilkinson roller nut (the LSR is just slightly wider than a regular nut and the Wilkinson is about as wide as a Floyd Rose nut)?

I'm assuming Wilkinson since you talk about the "shelf" area. You may also need to graft on a piece of wood to support the regular nut - I know that when you buy the LSR nut (which came later) you can buy it with a piece of plastic that fills that space left when you remove the Wilkinson, but it sounds like you want to make the headstock look like it never had a roller nut.


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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:44 am
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I'm guessing the LSR - yes, I want to make it look like it never had the roller nut. Hmm - if I glue the nut in, why would I need wood behind it? Not on the neck side, right?


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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:46 am
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Hi Johnny, welcome to the Forum.


johnnybregar wrote:
So I will need to do some sanding and shaping of the neck as it meets the headstock to get rid of the "shelf" that will be left once I install a bone nut.

Gosh, that just doesn't sound quite right to me. But I don't want to say more without seeing it - I wouldn't want to mislead you. Care to post us some photos so we can be certain what we're dealing with?


johnnybregar wrote:
Is it possible for me to do it myself?

Yes. But...


johnnybregar wrote:
Is it a nitrocellulose finish?

It will be polyurethane. That has advantages and disadvantages in this situation. Wait till we've seen what you've got for more on that.


John C wrote:
Does your Strat have the LSR roller nut or the Wilkinson roller nut...?

If it's the original style Wilkinson please take care removing it and sell it on Ebay afterwards. Those things are in short supply and there will be a happy new owner for it out there somewhere.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:22 pm
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IMO I'keep the original nut . I don't think the job look good with a bone/ plastic nut if you add a piece of wood .


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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:45 pm
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johnnybregar wrote:
I'm guessing the LSR - yes, I want to make it look like it never had the roller nut. Hmm - if I glue the nut in, why would I need wood behind it? Not on the neck side, right?


Okay - just to make sure:

This is the LSR nut:

Image

This is the Wilkinson nut:

Image

The LSR is slightly wider than a normal nut, but I suspect you can get a normal nut that will fill the slightly wider space (something like a PRS nut, which is a bit wider than most). With the Wilkinson there is wood you would have to fill in to put on a normal nut.


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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:09 pm
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If it's an LSR, just cut the bone thicker. Then no need for glue. I've done it, it works well, though you have to be exceptional with slotting. The extra depth makes for a lot of potential hang ups as the string passes through.

If it's a Wilkinson, you'd have to be mad to lose it, sell the neck instead. I suppose you could cut a piece of rosewood or maple to sit behind the nut and glue it in. Not something I'd want to do though.

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:03 am
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Good comments. Personally, I agree with every word our colleagues have written on this thread. Still, if johnnybregar insists on removing that roller nut...

No photos of the actual neck yet, but presuming it is the Wilkinson MK1 (as pictured by John), then from memory I think the problem is that the breaking point at the rollers is a little back from the front edge of the nut. In other words, the front of the roller nut is closer to the first fret than on an ordinary nut, and therefore just dropping a bone one up against the slot will not have the guitar intonating properly.

If I'm remembering that right then there's two possibilities. One is to carefully sculpt a section of raw bone so that it has an extra little sticky-out bit in front of the breaking point to take it up to slot edge. From there on it's just a matter of carving a larger than Strat-standard nut, in the manner of a Les Paul nut.

I sometimes carve compensated nuts from bone, which is much more fiddly. So the above is relatively do-able by comparison. But still a challenge if you're new to nut making.

The other possibility is to insert a sliver of rosewood to take up the gap between the existing slot edge and the place where the front of the new nut needs to be. If you're doing that you'd probably also want another bit of wood behind the nut to create a conventional Strat-type slot. And in that case you might as well simply remove the Wilkinson, carve and install a single lump of rosewood to fill the space entirely and then carve a new nut slot into it in the right position.

One of the many problems with that is finding a bit of rosewood that more or less matches the grain on the fingerboard, so that the whole thing doesn't look too utterly dumb and crappy. And that's just the first of many tricky aspects, depending on your carpentry skills level.

Myself, I wouldn't dream of removing that Wilkinson. They're great, and highly sought-after. Still, it's legal for a fella not to like it, and in that case Nikininja's advice is good: simply swap out the whole neck. So much simpler, and the end result will be less weird looking and dysfunctional. A Deluxe neck with an original Wilkinson will surely find a good price on Ebay.

Them's my thoughts. :)

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:20 am
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The break point on the LSR is back from the edge of the slot too.

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:29 am
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nikininja wrote:
The break point on the LSR is back from the edge of the slot too.

Right - I thought so, and it looks that way in the photo. But I've never fitted (or unfitted) an LSR, so I wasn't sure and didn't want to risk getting it wrong if that's what Johnny has.

Meantime, this was the bit that was bothering me in the OP:
johnnybregar wrote:
...I will need to do some sanding and shaping of the neck as it meets the headstock to get rid of the "shelf"...

Not sure why sanding and shaping of the neck would be necessary? If a guy was determined to do this mod he'd need to add wood, not take it away - right?

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:21 pm
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I say keep the nut as it has minimal tone differences. Yes, it may not look like a regular Strat nut but unless you want to put .11-.54 gauge set of strings, or a set of 'Hybrid' gauge strings, I dont see the point of a nut change. The Wilkinson nut is actually a very popular nut despite they are not manufactured anymore. They will handle anything from .8 (or below) up to .10 gauge strings. Basically IMHO- if it ain't broken, don't fix it. Well, thats my motto anyway. :)

The best and easiest way to do a conversion is by doing this:

Image

As you will see, the LSR is attached by two screws here, which is attached to a piece of plastic. Personally, I'd rather the nut be in contact directly with the fretboard. Bearing in mind, this nut will do the same job as the one you already have, with the added advantage of being able to use a heavier gauge string.

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:24 pm
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I could be wrong but I don't think I would recommend simply cutting the nut a little wider to fit the slot. The slot is wider than normal alright but I'm pretty sure the extra material is removed on the side closest to the body, not the side closest to the tuning machines. Cutting the nut wider will most likely present some intonation issues unless you can dress the nut very precisely to move the fulcrum back to its intended location. You' prolly be able to intonate the guitar on the twelfth fret just using saddle adjustments but the lower fretted notes would very likely still be a little out if you didn't dress the nut to recede the fulcrum point. You might be better off with a Buzz Feiten nut as that installation already requires some nut slot widening on that side of the slot.

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:43 am
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You're right, you have to file back from the first fret to traditional nut position. Or you can use the extra into the first fret area to sort out the low fret intonation issues that all guitars have.
That takes very careful planning though.

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:00 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I could be wrong but I don't think I would recommend simply cutting the nut a little wider to fit the slot. The slot is wider than normal alright but I'm pretty sure the extra material is removed on the side closest to the body, not the side closest to the tuning machines.

'Zactly. As mentioned above.


nikininja wrote:
You're right, you have to file back from the first fret to traditional nut position. Or you can use the extra into the first fret area to sort out the low fret intonation issues that all guitars have.
That takes very careful planning though.

'Zactly. What Nikininja and Ceri would do (aside from not removing the Wilkinson in the first place) is take this opportunity to tailormake a compensated bone nut. Along these lines:

Image

Image

But I've an instinct that may be more trouble than the OP wants to run to.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Replacing the nut on a 90's American Deluxe
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:15 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I could be wrong but I don't think I would recommend simply cutting the nut a little wider to fit the slot. The slot is wider than normal alright but I'm pretty sure the extra material is removed on the side closest to the body, not the side closest to the tuning machines. Cutting the nut wider will most likely present some intonation issues unless you can dress the nut very precisely to move the fulcrum back to its intended location. You' prolly be able to intonate the guitar on the twelfth fret just using saddle adjustments but the lower fretted notes would very likely still be a little out if you didn't dress the nut to recede the fulcrum point. You might be better off with a Buzz Feiten nut as that installation already requires some nut slot widening on that side of the slot.


Aha - I didn't know that, I was just assuming the extra width was on the tuner side of the nut, not the fret side of the nut.


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