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Post subject: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:23 am
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Forgive me if I'm asking a tired question but after hours of searching the Internet, I can't seem to find an official position from Fender about the specs, fit and finish differences between US manufactured Strats and those manufactured in other countries.

As a marketing director for a manufacturer, I can't possibly imagine a company risking the brand by having different quality standards on the same model product. But by the postings I see, musicians are absolutely adamant that there is a difference--differences in wood grain, workmanship and hardware.

Products like Harley Davidson have a brand image that is far beyond the functional value of the product. I doubt that their buyers would consider it to be a Harley if it were manufactured in Mexico even it it were identical in every way to one made in the US.

Again, I'm only interested in the manufacturer's statement on this.

Thanks for helping me understand.

Regards.


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Post subject: Re: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:58 am
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Hi lhyams3, welcome to the Forum.

We here are not the manufacturer so we can't give you a statement on their behalf. However, a way to think about it is this.

Fender manufacture guitars at a range of price points. Therefore, they must spec those instruments such that there is something perceived to be "better" about the higher price items - or why would anyone buy them? For no other reason than labour costs it makes sense for the Company to put the more expensive models into their US factory, where the work costs the most, and run the cheaper guitars on lines in countries where the unit cost is lower.

Patriotic Americans like to believe that there is something finer about a guitar simply because of the soil on which it is made - and people debate and yell about that to their heart's content on forums like this one without coming to any useful conclusion.

Meantime, there are real differences in the models to reflect their different prices. You mentioned timber: Mike Eldred, head of the Custom Shop, described how his bit of the Company gets first pick of the wood, choosing for themselves material that looks nicest and most regular and perhaps has features customers will perceive as advantageous, such as quarter-sawn cuts, pretty flame, absence of pin-knots and so forth. Perfectly nice and respectable wood also goes to the Corona factory. The other factories often get nice timber too, though perhaps the need for a player to look closely increases as you move down the food chain. Mexican models have often been built from body blanks made from five or more pieces covered in thin veneer front and back, which probably functions just as well as an electric guitar body but many of us might think of as less appealing in some real or imagined way. Squiers have often been made from woods such as basswood and poplar, which rightly or wrongly are sometimes supposed less desireable. (Those woods have also been found in high spec instruments at times.)

Over the years the Mexican and Far East factory guitars have often been spec'd with cheaper electronic parts such as switches and potentiometers. And MIM guitars have tended to use ceramic pickups, which some (but not everyone) think of as lesser to the AlNiCos on US models.

For several decades there has been an unofficial demarkation regarding finish. Fender use polyurethane on all their necks except nitro-finished AVRIs and some CSs, but for the most part you will find urethane on US factory guitar bodies and polyester on Mexican ones and Squiers. There are more and more exceptions to this, but it currently remains a general rule of thumb.

Hardware is generally cheaper the further down the catalog you go. This is particularly noticeable with tuners, bridge blocks and sometimes saddles. There is a lot of argument over the merits of these things, but the fact is that the units fitted to the US guitars cost more, and a lot of people would think of them as better. And of course the US Standard and Deluxe Strats are fitted with two-point bridges while the Mexican and Far Eastern models mostly get six-screw trems (the merits of all of which are open to discussion).

Obviously, US Deluxe guitars have additional tweaky things like contoured heels, locking tuners and S1 switches. You pays your money, you takes your choice on that stuff.

Something else to bear in mind is that, at least in the past, Mexican and Far East Strats have used bridges with a narrower string spacing and mounting screw layout - what people often refer to as "import specs". The simple commercial reason for this is so that you can't upgrade a cheaper Strat with US model parts: if you want a higher catalog guitar the Company wants you to buy one from them, not modify it yourself. (I'm not actually certain if MIMs still use the narrower bridge; I've a feeling that might have changed lately, but I don't know.)

All through I've spoken in terms of perception of quality, because all of these points are things people disagree about mightily - whether a two-point bridge is better than a six-screw one, and so forth and so on...

One thing is worth noting. The quality at the bottom of the catalog has gone up and up over the years. Classic Vibe Squiers came along and seriously raised the bar for what you can expect in fit and finish from a $200-300 guitar. And QC has been driven ever upwards at the Ensenada plant to the point they've recently started offering Vintage models with nitro lacquer, as well as guitars like this MIM Standard Plus Top:

http://www.fender.com/en-GB/guitars/str ... -plus-top/

Personally I think that is just amazing bang for the buck. The fact is, the lower-to-middle price range guitars of today would have astonished players of 40 years ago, so the pressure is always on the higher price instruments to justify their cost. I think they do - but that's something else people debate.

You found me in a typing mood. Lotta words: did it get you nearer to the answers you're looking for?

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:13 am
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Thanks so much for such a well thought out response. It explains a lot about the different models and manufacturing differences.

But here is my core issue; as a manufacturer, every unique product (model number) that I manufacture has precise specs for material, tolerances and assembly. It is either followed or it is out of spec. If it is out of spec it never makes it to the market at any price or it would undermine the value and trust that my customers have in my product and company. Again, I am only talking about identical model numbers-products that meet exactly the same specs and standards of quality.

I suspect that they are indistinguishable and Fender has found that they are able to charge more for those manufactured in the US. If this were indeed true, Fender probably wouldn't address the issue and would prefer to let the market think whatever it wants.


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Post subject: Re: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:49 pm
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Two words: "Proprietary Information".

What makes you think that Fender would even consider making this information public?

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Post subject: Re: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:53 pm
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Ceri wrote:
Hi lhyams3, welcome to the Forum.

We here are not the manufacturer so we can't give you a statement on their behalf. However, a way to think about it is this.

Fender manufacture guitars at a range of price points. Therefore, they must spec those instruments such that there is something perceived to be "better" about the higher price items - or why would anyone buy them? For no other reason than labour costs it makes sense for the Company to put the more expensive models into their US factory, where the work costs the most, and run the cheaper guitars on lines in countries where the unit cost is lower.

Patriotic Americans like to believe that there is something finer about a guitar simply because of the soil on which it is made - and people debate and yell about that to their heart's content on forums like this one without coming to any useful conclusion.

Meantime, there are real differences in the models to reflect their different prices. You mentioned timber: Mike Eldred, head of the Custom Shop, described how his bit of the Company gets first pick of the wood, choosing for themselves material that looks nicest and most regular and perhaps has features customers will perceive as advantageous, such as quarter-sawn cuts, pretty flame, absence of pin-knots and so forth. Perfectly nice and respectable wood also goes to the Corona factory. The other factories often get nice timber too, though perhaps the need for a player to look closely increases as you move down the food chain. Mexican models have often been built from body blanks made from five or more pieces covered in thin veneer front and back, which probably functions just as well as an electric guitar body but many of us might think of as less appealing in some real or imagined way. Squiers have often been made from woods such as basswood and poplar, which rightly or wrongly are sometimes supposed less desireable. (Those woods have also been found in high spec instruments at times.)

Over the years the Mexican and Far East factory guitars have often been spec'd with cheaper electronic parts such as switches and potentiometers. And MIM guitars have tended to use ceramic pickups, which some (but not everyone) think of as lesser to the AlNiCos on US models.

For several decades there has been an unofficial demarkation regarding finish. Fender use polyurethane on all their necks except nitro-finished AVRIs and some CSs, but for the most part you will find urethane on US factory guitar bodies and polyester on Mexican ones and Squiers. There are more and more exceptions to this, but it currently remains a general rule of thumb.

Hardware is generally cheaper the further down the catalog you go. This is particularly noticeable with tuners, bridge blocks and sometimes saddles. There is a lot of argument over the merits of these things, but the fact is that the units fitted to the US guitars cost more, and a lot of people would think of them as better. And of course the US Standard and Deluxe Strats are fitted with two-point bridges while the Mexican and Far Eastern models mostly get six-screw trems (the merits of all of which are open to discussion).

Obviously, US Deluxe guitars have additional tweaky things like contoured heels, locking tuners and S1 switches. You pays your money, you takes your choice on that stuff.

Something else to bear in mind is that, at least in the past, Mexican and Far East Strats have used bridges with a narrower string spacing and mounting screw layout - what people often refer to as "import specs". The simple commercial reason for this is so that you can't upgrade a cheaper Strat with US model parts: if you want a higher catalog guitar the Company wants you to buy one from them, not modify it yourself. (I'm not actually certain if MIMs still use the narrower bridge; I've a feeling that might have changed lately, but I don't know.)

All through I've spoken in terms of perception of quality, because all of these points are things people disagree about mightily - whether a two-point bridge is better than a six-screw one, and so forth and so on...

One thing is worth noting. The quality at the bottom of the catalog has gone up and up over the years. Classic Vibe Squiers came along and seriously raised the bar for what you can expect in fit and finish from a $200-300 guitar. And QC has been driven ever upwards at the Ensenada plant to the point they've recently started offering Vintage models with nitro lacquer, as well as guitars like this MIM Standard Plus Top:

http://www.fender.com/en-GB/guitars/str ... -plus-top/

Personally I think that is just amazing bang for the buck. The fact is, the lower-to-middle price range guitars of today would have astonished players of 40 years ago, so the pressure is always on the higher price instruments to justify their cost. I think they do - but that's something else people debate.

You found me in a typing mood. Lotta words: did it get you nearer to the answers you're looking for?

Cheers - C


Very interesting post Ceri, I may also add that the arguments & myths over (eg:) nitro and urethane also give an opportunity of an up sell- when one can say that nitro finishes are inferior in way that they deteriorate- yet folklore about 'thinskin' and much desired relic or natural wear makes it desirable. Yet people say it 'Allows the wood to breathe' yet, how would wood breath through in impermeable surface coat- and how can it 'breathe' when infact wood at the stage of finishing could be classed as 'dead' after it has been dried an sorts?

Sometimes it's a good thing for a company to not divulge too much information, and it's actually not entirely compulsory for any company to release much of the more finer details of specs.. Like the Mexican plant for example, how do we know that the grade isn't the same or better as the US plant, when they put out bodies like these on the standard plus range? What range have you seen a US guitar with a quality of wood like this? Would it benefit the US plant if it was known that it was equal or better and would they even divulge that info to the buyer??

Thought provoking.

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Post subject: Re: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:16 pm
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lhyams3 wrote:
I suspect that they are indistinguishable and Fender has found that they are able to charge more for those manufactured in the US. If this were indeed true, Fender probably wouldn't address the issue and would prefer to let the market think whatever it wants.


"Able to charge more", is one way of looking at it it. The same guitar, more or less, simply costs more to make in the US, than it does elsewhere. Labour and overheads are significantly higher.

Another way:
This market sells audio products. Any manufacturer can and will exploit the inherent biases, preferences, myths, and differing expectations of the buyers in this market, many of whom make decisions based on this baggage, their eyes and price tags, and not their ears.


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Post subject: Re: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:10 am
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:54 pm
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lhyams3 wrote:
Thanks so much for such a well thought out response. It explains a lot about the different models and manufacturing differences.

But here is my core issue; as a manufacturer, every unique product (model number) that I manufacture has precise specs for material, tolerances and assembly. It is either followed or it is out of spec. If it is out of spec it never makes it to the market at any price or it would undermine the value and trust that my customers have in my product and company. Again, I am only talking about identical model numbers-products that meet exactly the same specs and standards of quality.

I suspect that they are indistinguishable and Fender has found that they are able to charge more for those manufactured in the US. If this were indeed true, Fender probably wouldn't address the issue and would prefer to let the market think whatever it wants.

In music, it is not specifications, it is sound.
When I got my first strat, they came with maple or rosewood necks - choice over!
The idea that any musician should be concerned on whether the wood is AAA flame or long or short tenons or alnico versus ceramic is a waste of time.
Should be worried about learning a new piece.

Cork away!


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Post subject: Re: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:16 pm
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:31 pm
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Are you asking as a student of engineering or as a musician?

Engineering students obsess over components and specifications. Musicians obsess over sound. This is a forum for musicians. The engineering or manufacturing processes belong to Fender and their employees.

If you want repeatable consistency, you want a custom made aluminum or carbon fiber instrument, not a mass produced wood instrument.

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Post subject: Re: Fender manufacturing specs
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:26 pm
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:37 pm
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Location: Natural Bridge, Virginia
seismic wrote:
Are you asking as a student of engineering or as a musician?


Personally, I think the OP is neither. I think he is a troll. :roll:

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