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Post subject: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:27 pm
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What I know is an age old question now, I was wondering if anyone here could specifically date an E series American Strat? I have a G&L ASAT Special, and The cool Admin at Guitarsbyleo, Craig, actually emailed the Exec VP to find a date on my axe. He got the exact date, along with some other info from that day. I'm not trying to create competition here, I just thought maybe these days somebody has an inside track on tracing the year of a USA E series Strat, if not a date? It's not quite important enough to me to take the neck off at this point.

The seriel # I have is E434404 just in case.

I just got here, but have enjoyed reading around so far.


Bob


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:24 pm
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Usually you don't need 'an inside man' to track the year on an US Fender - your "E4+5 digits" dates the guitar to (about) 1984, Link

An exact date, however, is a tad more complicated. Necks, bodies, hardware (pickups...) may have a different date, even a different year. Fender didn't/doesn't have a habit to match a specific neck to a specific body from the beginning of the build (except in Custom Shop guitars).
And, to compare with G&L, the Fender product volume is a somewhat larger, so you'd be very lucky to find somebody remembering the day your axe was born (although it might be good marketing from Fender to make up some nice stories as answers to inquiries 8) )


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:52 pm
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That's just the table I've used to date my Fenders, but the E4 + 5 digits shows up from 1984-1987. Is there something in the seriel # that suggests it's an early year? The problem I've known of, just like the MIJ's around that time, is that you can't narrow down the actual year with the seriel numbers because the prefixes show up in multiple years. It's not that big of a deal, but I wonder when you see an ebay listing for a US Standard of any of those years (1984, 85, 87), how can they definitively state that?

Bob


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:17 am
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Sorry, didn't read my own link thoroughly enough - late at night here when answering...
1984-1987 is what you get there.

You might want to contact consumerrelations@fender.com and see if they get it a little more precise...


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:11 am
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Hi Allstarrr

It is well documented that after the close of the Fullerton plant when ownership left CBS there were no American strats etc for a couple of years.
If you have an "E series" US standard stratocaster produced early at the Corona plant it should have a serial number left over from Fullerton or so the story goes. Hence E ...... usually means late 86 thru 1987 till they were used up.

I have an 87 US standard strat (the TBX fitted guitar) with an E. . . . serial number.
IMO it is a great guitar, a keeper for sure.

E bay etc adverts are somewhat misleading.
Japanese guitars were available during that period of course.
Others may chip in with more info?

Regards Al


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:02 am
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allstarrr,

Just to add to what the others have said:

1. Contacting Fender's Consumer Relations isn't going to help you on this guitar; they only have data going back to 1993. You would have to therefore take it apart and check the dates on the body and neck to see when it was made.

2. Not only were "E4xxxxx" serial numbers used for a number of years, they were used on three very different Fender Stratocasters. Show us a picture or describe the guitar a bit and we can tell you which one it is.

All that being said - the E4 serial numbers were used on a few of the 1984 CBS-era Standard Strats and Elite Strats. The CBS Standard is that model that has the input jack on the pickguard, only one tone control, and the top-loading FreeFlyte trem. They were also used on a few 1984 CBS-era Elite Strats - these have 3 pickups without exposed poles, 3 pushbuttons for selecting each pickup, active mid boost, and active noise cancelling. Now the vast majority of these CBS Standard and Elite Strats have "E3xxxxx" serial numbers but there are a few that have "E4xxxxx" serial numbers.

CBS sold Fender in February 1985; they had pretty much shut down guitar production in September/October 1984. The new owners, FMIC, did not buy the CBS factory in Fullerton, California. It took them until October 1985 to get their factory in Corona, California up and running, and from October 1985 through October 1986 all Fender produced in the USA were the Vintage Reissue models. They put the newly designed American Standard Strat into production in October 1986, ramping up for the model's official introduction at the January 1987 NAMM show.

Among the supplies FMIC got from CBS were the unsued headstock decals for Strats, Teles, etc. that contained serial number prefixes of "E3" and "E4"; they decided to use these up on the American Standards. Since they were still ramping up production it took Fender until about mid-1988 to use up the last of the "E4" serial number decals and move to "E8" decals.

Long winded post - bottom line if your Strat has a 2-post trem and 22 frets it's an American Standard, and the "E4xxxxx" serial numbers were used from as early as October 1986 to as late as April-May 1988.


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:12 pm
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Long winded nothing, John! I don't think you could say more than I'd want to hear, and I appreciated reading/learning from every word. Mine would then have to be an '86-'88. I'm not sure how to embed the pics, but I think these links should get them to you.

http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/allst ... sort=3&o=0
http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/allst ... sort=3&o=3
http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/allst ... sort=3&o=1
http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/allst ... sort=3&o=2

You have to check this ebay ad giberish out, too, and tell me what you think. Look at the botom of the description where he tells of getting it from a dealer... The saddest thing of all, or best depending on the way you look at it, look how pathetically low $ the guitar went for. I thought that's almost what you expect to get for a nice MIJ Strat from 1986, which I actually have one of. The other strange thing is that those MIJ Strats from 85-86 also have those overlapping seriel prefixes where they can't specify which year.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Fender-USA ... 7675.l2557

I do love and enjoy how easy it is to find great info generously shared on these boards!

Bob


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:36 am
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allstarrr wrote:
Long winded nothing, John! I don't think you could say more than I'd want to hear, and I appreciated reading/learning from every word. Mine would then have to be an '86-'88. I'm not sure how to embed the pics, but I think these links should get them to you.

http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/allst ... sort=3&o=0
http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/allst ... sort=3&o=3
http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/allst ... sort=3&o=1
http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/allst ... sort=3&o=2

You have to check this ebay ad giberish out, too, and tell me what you think. Look at the botom of the description where he tells of getting it from a dealer... The saddest thing of all, or best depending on the way you look at it, look how pathetically low $ the guitar went for. I thought that's almost what you expect to get for a nice MIJ Strat from 1986, which I actually have one of. The other strange thing is that those MIJ Strats from 85-86 also have those overlapping seriel prefixes where they can't specify which year.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Fender-USA ... 7675.l2557

I do love and enjoy how easy it is to find great info generously shared on these boards!

Bob


Hi Bob,

Yep, your Strat is definitely an early production American Standard, and it's in really nice shape for a giutar that is now at least 25-26 years old.

I did look at the ebay ad as well - it is also for one of those early production American Standards although the owner did change out the pickups. The verbiage is complete crap; for example Fender's consumer relations I'm sure would be able to identify it as an American Standard by the features and they would put it in that 1986-1988 range. Also that kind of information is readily available in Duchessoir's (sp?) book on the Stratocaster or in Wheeler's "The Stratocaster Chronicles".

The MIJs are a bit different - for them only the letter means anything, so just because an MIJ serial number might be "E5xxxxx" it doesn't necessarily mean it was built in 1985. As to why they used the same letter for multiple years I suppose that is just the way FujiGen serialized the guitars for Fender back then. Fender Japan doesn't own a factory; they contract with the various manufacturers in Japan to build the guitars to their specs. In the 1980s it was FujiGen, the company that owns the Greco name, and they also built guitars for Ibanez, Roland's synth controllers, and Fender's Heartfield brand from the late 80s/early 90s.


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:29 am
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John,

What was all that nonsense in the ebay ad about an '87 being worth more than an '84? And he tries to claim that it's an '84 when it's the basic Standard Strat which was not produced in '84, correct? I guess all the basic 3 single coil Standard's were between '86-'88, and mostly '86-'87 from what I understand. Was '84 in the Fullerton factory, and '86-'88 in the Carona factory, and any difference in the quality of build?

Then, there's a question I have about a funky situation in this ad for an '85(???) MIJ.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-Stratoca ... 7675.l2557

First of all, again, how can anyone make a specific claim on an 1985 MIJ Strat when the seriels overlap? My seriel is #B011075 and only specifies '85-'86 as far as I've ever been able to learn. His is an "Exxxxxx" which ranges from '84-'87.

Second, please take a zoomed look at the headstock and see the "Made in USA" stamp??? It looks like the same neck I have. It has the System 1 tremelo that I have with the locking nut, but my headstock says Made in Japan. Hmmm?

For some reason, I thought these were made at the Terada factory. Does Terada produce more of the high end, and FujiGen more mid-line?

And lastly, those were two relatively nice guitars that seemed to sell for low prices. Did it seem that way to anyone else, or is that what todays market usually brings for these things?

Thanks so much for your time and sharing, I appreciate knowing things!

Bob


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:40 pm
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allstarrr wrote:
John,

What was all that nonsense in the ebay ad about an '87 being worth more than an '84? And he tries to claim that it's an '84 when it's the basic Standard Strat which was not produced in '84, correct? I guess all the basic 3 single coil Standard's were between '86-'88, and mostly '86-'87 from what I understand. Was '84 in the Fullerton factory, and '86-'88 in the Carona factory, and any difference in the quality of build?


No, that's not exactly true. CBS/Fender was making 4 distinct Strat models at the Fullerton factory in 1983-1984 (the factory was shut down about October 1984):

1. Standard Stratocaster - this is that "2-knob" Strat with the output jack on the pickguard and the basic-style FreeFlyte tremolo. They are sometimes called "cost cutter" models because Dan Smith was given a price point and asked to use as much of the technology from the Elite models as he could squeeze into that amount. These were made from about March-ish 1983 until CBS shut down the factory in about October 1984; however, most of these wound up with "E3xxxxx" serial numbers; I suppose they weren't all that popular so Fender didn't use up their "E3" headstock decals. Here is a photo from the Stratcollector website:

Image

2. Elite Stratocaster - this was their attempt at a modernized upgraded Strat with noise cancelling pickups (there is actually a dummy coil under the pickguard, push-button switches, the TBX tone control, and an active mid-boost. Also carried mostly "E3" serial numbers regardless of year, built for the same duration as the Standard Strat. Here is a photo from Stratcollector:

Image

3. USA '57 Reissue Strat

4. USA '62 Reissue Strat

I'm sure I don't have to describe these - CBS put them into production during 1982 and production continued until the factory shutdown.

The USA Reissues were the models that FMIC put back into production when they opened the Corona factory in the fall of 1985 - the first guitars that were deemed worthy of shipping out have October 1985 neck and body dates. Production was also pretty tiny, starting at about 10 guitars per day. I've seen quotes where they were able to ramp up to 150 instruments per day by about April of 1987, but by then FMIC was also building the American Standard models and getting ready to add the Strat Plus to the lineup.

The American Standard's timeline is: show prototype at the Summer 1986 NAMM show, put refined prototypes into production circa October 1986 (at least for the Strats), "officially" introduce the model at the January 1987 NAMM show.

The Reissues from the Fullerton era and the early Corona era (until say 1988) are considered to be unique models due to their extreme body contours (the "Fullerton Curve") and high quality. They are worth quite a bit.

The "real" 1983-84 Strats are have a few very rabid fans; they are a real "love or hate" model so I suppose that what the guy is getting at in the ebay ad is that an early American Standard (if he called in a 1987) would be worth more than if people overlook the ad because they think it really is a 1984 2-knob Strat.

allstarrr wrote:
Then, there's a question I have about a funky situation in this ad for an '85(???) MIJ.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-Stratoca ... 7675.l2557

First of all, again, how can anyone make a specific claim on an 1985 MIJ Strat when the seriels overlap? My seriel is #B011075 and only specifies '85-'86 as far as I've ever been able to learn. His is an "Exxxxxx" which ranges from '84-'87.

Second, please take a zoomed look at the headstock and see the "Made in USA" stamp??? It looks like the same neck I have. It has the System 1 tremelo that I have with the locking nut, but my headstock says Made in Japan. Hmmm?

For some reason, I thought these were made at the Terada factory. Does Terada produce more of the high end, and FujiGen more mid-line?



I took a look at that - I think that someone replaced the "Made in Japan" decal with a "Made in USA" decal - it looks kind of scratched up.

I think he's calling it a 1985 because he's trying to read the serial number like you would read a USA number - "E" for "1980s" and the "5" making it "1985". Which of course does not work for MIJ Fenders.

My main expertise is with the USA models - for some reason I thought that all the early MIJs were FujiGen; I've only recently read about Terada being a source. I suspect that it was just whomever could fill the order for Fender Japan for the particular model. Considering some of the work FujiGen did for Ibanez (the Artist and Muscian models in particular) I wouldn't necessarily call them just "mid-line"; it was probably more that Fender Japan didn't want to necessarily source from just one supplier.

allstarrr wrote:
And lastly, those were two relatively nice guitars that seemed to sell for low prices. Did it seem that way to anyone else, or is that what todays market usually brings for these things?




Both of those guitars were modded with pickups that people either love or hate - if you love the Lace Sensors then that might have been a good upgrade for the MIJ Strat. Same way with the Vintage Noiseless pickups. I had a 1998 American Deluxe with the Vintage Noiseless pickups and didn't care for them, but I never minded the Lace Sensors. I'm in that camp that liked the EC a little better with the Laces than with the Vintage Noiseless as well.

Either way the mods don't necessarily make those more desireable guitars, so they went for a bit less than you would expect.


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:32 pm
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John C, I am always amazed at the amount of information you have—very informative and well expressed. You are a real asset to this Forum.

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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:26 pm
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Xhefri wrote:
John C, I am always amazed at the amount of information you have—very informative and well expressed. You are a real asset to this Forum.


Thanks Zhefri - the feeling is mutal as I feel you have virtually every nuance of the Strat Plus/Plus Deluxe/Ultras detailed on your site.


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Post subject: Re: QUESTION RE: Seriel dating
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:42 pm
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I love the mutual admiration society... a bunch of you know your stuff, and together it's an amazing source for someone to look to, here (and fun!).

I was looking at that decal, and as I do so it does look a little messed up and fake, huh? What a strange thing to do. Be who you are, and let your guitar be it, as well... haha. I'm sure its all been seen out here before at some point in time. Hope to catch up to you guys in another thread sometime.

Thanks again, Al, jm & John!


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