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Post subject: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:45 pm
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I have a 1997 Fender Ultra Stratocaster. It has three pickups, two singe and one dual (all Lace Sensor). The two single pickups sound great. The dual doesn't sound good, it has always sounded thin and quiet, almost tin like. When I got the guitar I was young and didn't really know this was wrong. I just didn't use the pickup. The guitar sat it storage for a long time, and recently I started playing it again. This time however I know quite a bit more about electronics, and I knew that this pickup is not functioning properly. I took the guitar apart thinking I might find a loose or broken wire, but I didn't. I did learn a bit about what I saw inside. This is what I think I have:

Three Lace Sensor Pickups (two single & one duel).
TBX Tone Control (I think just for the dual?)
I think the duel is split into single top / both /single bottom (there is a DPDT on-on-on switch).

I read online that this could be a phase issue and I could try reversing the orange and white wires, but on a duel how is this done?

I have some pictures if that would help. I put the pictures on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream

I think that the duel is wired like
"split into single top / both /single bottom"
in this document:
http://www.lacemusic.com/pdf/9.pdf
the diagram at the bottom of the page.

Any help would be appreciated. I can't find any good documentation about my guitar on the Fender support page, or any other website.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:15 am
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I just remembered something else. The three position switch (DPDT on on on), when in one position there is absolutely no sound, it's like the volume is off. That's why I thought I might find a broken wire, but I didn't. This is only true when the five position switch in set to only use the duel pickup.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:23 am
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Perhaps the humbucking red sensor is dead and needs a replacement.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:47 am
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You might be right chromeface. Is there a good way for me to test the pickup before I buy a replacement? I suspect that I need to desolder the pickup wires and measure the resistance. Is there any other test? Each red pickup has three wires coming off of it, orange, white and green.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:18 am
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FatBuck wrote:
You might be right chromeface. Is there a good way for me to test the pickup before I buy a replacement? I suspect that I need to desolder the pickup wires and measure the resistance. Is there any other test? Each red pickup has three wires coming off of it, orange, white and green.


Yes, you can perform these tests to determine if the pickup needs to be changed.

I had a similar problem with a Gold Lace Sensor (neck pickup) in my black Squier Silver Strat and got a direct replacement.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:33 am
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Yep, something not quite right in there. Being a humbucker pickup, you can easily swap it out for something different.

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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:25 pm
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I'm looking at the Lace pickup site and I thought the duel pickup in my guitar doesn't look like the duelly from Lace. I checked my photos and I am wondering if I have two singe pickups to make the duel in my ultra strat, or do I need a lace dullly?

Lace Single:
http://www.lacepickupsdirect.com/Produc ... Code=21141

Lace Double:
http://www.lacepickupsdirect.com/Produc ... Code=04503

My guitar:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83731998@N ... hotostream

Note: Adjusting the height of the pickups on my guitar allows individual on the bass end, but they are tied together on the high end. That makes me think they are two singles in the guitar. You can see that in the picture of my guitar.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:17 pm
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I looked over the wiring and it looks stock and is wired correctly. I take it this guitar must be a 1996-1997? Anyhow, Lace Sensors are famous for having issues. If they get bumped hard, or if you sneeze on them, they will drop about 75% of their output or more. BTW this Dually is NOT a humbucker pickup, but two Lace Sensors bolted together. The way this is wired that one dead pickup would affect much of the guitar.

Here is a simple test. Get a small screw driver, plug the guitar in and turn it up. Put the 5-way in the bridge position and the mini-switch in the down position and then tap on the dually pickups. The lower pickup (the one closest to the bridge) should make a loud tapping sound. Now put the mini-switch in the middle position and do the same. Both pickups should tap loud and evenly. If not one of them is dead. Now do the same with the mini-switch in the up position. The upper Lace should tap loud (the pickup closest to the middle).

If in the up or down position either pickup does not tap loud you have a defective pickup.

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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:58 pm
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Yes Xhefri it is a 1997. I remember ordering it in because the guitar store didn't have any in blue burst. I had a choice back then, buy a car or a guitar... I didn't get the car for a few more years, but I was happy.

Thank you for looking over the wiring, it's just a little different than all the schematics I have seen so far. Some have the 3-way switch for the dual pickups, but no TBX pot(s), or vice-versa. I know a fair bit about electronics, but not really what is in the guitar. I have been reading about the components today getting familiar with them before I open up the guitar again.

I did your test, what a good idea, it does show that the two red lace bridge pickups don't respond much. The red closest to the bridge makes a slight sound, but the other seems totally dead.

I posted the test on YouTube so you could see it (as well as others):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAaf_huCAvA

Do you think I need to order just one pickup, or two of them? I am debating if I should order a "Lace Sensor" from http://www.lacepickupsdirect.com/ or buy a "Fender Lace Sensor" from eBay. I don't know if Fender is making these anymore. I would buy the "Fender" brand so it matches the other pickups. I know that might sound silly, but it would bother me a little if one of the pickups didn't say "Fender". But, if there is a good reason to get a new Lace Sensor, for example if they are less fragile, then I will do it. What sounds best is what I am after in the end.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:44 am
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FatBuck wrote:
Do you think I need to order just one pickup, or two of them? I am debating if I should order a "Lace Sensor" from http://www.lacepickupsdirect.com/ or buy a "Fender Lace Sensor" from eBay. I don't know if Fender is making these anymore. I would buy the "Fender" brand so it matches the other pickups. I know that might sound silly, but it would bother me a little if one of the pickups didn't say "Fender". But, if there is a good reason to get a new Lace Sensor, for example if they are less fragile, then I will do it. What sounds best is what I am after in the end.


FatBuck - Fender didn't make the Lace Sensors back in the day; they just had a usage/distribution/licensing deal with Lace that allowed the pickups to be branded "Fender Lace Sensor"; as far as I know that deal with Lace ended whenever the Clapton and Beck went to the Fender-built Noiseless pickups (call it 2001). Fender of course had a stockpile of these as they continued to use the gold logo ones on the USA Buddy Guy Strat until it was discontinued a few years ago and they continued to sell them as replacements for a while, but I don't believe the Fender logo versions have been in production since at least the early 2000s. I'm also pretty sure that Fender's "exclusive" deal with Lace ended in the 1990s.

My long-winded point being to get a Fender logoed Lace Sensor you're going to have to turn one up from ebay and hope it is fully functional.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:47 am
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I found this post (http://www.strat-talk.com/forum/pickup-forum/214383-nos-fender-lace-gold-sensors-2010-am-std.html) that shows the difference between the old and the new lace sensor pickups. Now I am wondering what the difference is mechanically. Does the new epoxy filled case make the pickup less fragile, but disposable if it breaks? Are the old style repairable?

It looks like I have some research to do.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:51 am
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Thanks for the clarification John C. If they haven't been branding then "Fender" for over a decade then I am a little skeptical about the "new" pickups I see on Ebay.

I wonder when the Lace Sensor pickups changed to the new design with the epoxy filled case.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:59 am
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FatBuck wrote:
Thanks for the clarification John C. If they haven't been branding then "Fender" for over a decade then I am a little skeptical about the "new" pickups I see on Ebay.


Fender did sell their logoed versions of the Lace Sensors individually as aftermarket pieces; it is always possible that the ebay seller found a stash of these in their stockroom (or maybe picked them up from a store having a "going out of business" sale or something like that). If they are willing to give you an option to return it you might as well take the chance and hopefully you will wind up with a real "new old stock" Fender Lace Sensor and not a used one.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:42 pm
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Since one of my red pups sounds off when selected alone, and the other sounds extremely quiet when selected alone, wouldn't that indicate a problem with a shared component? Or both pups are bad? Could it be one of the switches? I might be able to test that with a multimeter.


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Post subject: Re: 1997 Ultra Stratocaster - duel pickup sounds bad, help?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:24 pm
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Xhefri wrote:
BTW this Dually is NOT a humbucker pickup, but two Lace Sensors bolted together.

OK El-Jefe, you kinda turned my little world on its side over on that other thread about Sensors and now you're teasing my brain again so I'm going to need some clarification because I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole Sensor thing. Are you saying only the dually in the OP's guitar is not a bucker or that all Sensor duallies are not buckers? I had an '89 Tele Plus Deluxe with a red dually and it sounded like a bucker.

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