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Post subject: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:58 am
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I was sent pcitures of a decent shape supposedly one owner 61 sunburst/rosewood strat. It had a bridge cover (never saw one of those before) but was missing all headstock decals. Best I can tell it looks like they were removed early in it`s life as I can`t even see an outline or any discoloration. It could just be the pics though. Could anyone speculate on how much this devalues the guitar? Thanks--


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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:06 am
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basscat125 wrote:
I was sent pcitures of a decent shape supposedly one owner 61 sunburst/rosewood strat. It had a bridge cover (never saw one of those before) but was missing all headstock decals. Best I can tell it looks like they were removed early in it`s life as I can`t even see an outline or any discoloration. It could just be the pics though. Could anyone speculate on how much this devalues the guitar? Thanks--


Can't speak intelligently of devaluation, but it does make the whole thing suspect.

You will want to pull the neck and look for markings on the neck/body and also check out the date codes on the Pots before paying big bucks for a suspect '61.

If you can't do that... walk away or take your chances.

Good Luck !

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:49 pm
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I agree this whole thing sounds suspect.
Before speculating on the price it would be first necessary to establish the true authenticity of the item.
Since it is one owner that owner should be able to tell you why there is nothing on the headstock.
The fretboard should be a slab style with kluston deluxe stamped in a single line on the tuners. There should be a butterfly string retainer with a small spacer.
Maybe you could post some pics. :D


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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:06 pm
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jimmy_james wrote:
I agree this whole thing sounds suspect.
Before speculating on the price it would be first necessary to establish the true authenticity of the item.


Absolutely. If the owner can't whistle Dixie and furnish some provenance or balks at disassembling the instrument to determine same, tell him "sayonara" and hit the road.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:12 am
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Hey guys- thanks for the replies. The pictures are in a Winzip file; not sure how to post them. The owner says the stickers came off years ago and he doesn`t have. (aren`t they lacquered over?)
I`m the older brother of the prospective buyer. He sent me the pictures for my opinion as I`ve been around Fenders for so many years. (about 17 more than him)
He would get a written appraisal by Mandolin Bros in Staten Island NY, if he decides to go ahead with this. I gotta say though, from a used to be kid in the 1960s gazing at Fender guitars and basses in music stores and catalogs; this one is miissing alot of what was cool about them. I`m advising him to walk; I don`t believe 2 decals came off by themselves and as you have simply stated--it seems suspect


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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:32 am
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If it looks like a fish, smells like fish and tastes like fish... it is definitely fishy.

Decals do not just 'fall off' - lacquered or not (and these would have had lacquer over them I believe). If you think about it, headstock decals are in a relatively well protected area: there's minimal finger wear there and the strings plus the tuner height afford the surface of the headstock a fair degree of 'covert' protection from knocks and incidental abrasion too. Unless someone had serious OCD, shares in Pledge and a very heavy hand, I can't see that even 50 years of normal cleaning would nix the decals either.

No, if the decals aren't there, someone meant that to happen, and you are right to question why.

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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:03 am
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Gotta agree, my cousin has a 1962 Strat and the lettering is as fresh and crisp as the day that the guitar came out of Manny's in 1965.

Anyway you can find Fender decals on the net, I know where I used to live a guy came into the local guitar store with a fender for sale, it said Fender on the head stock but the serial number showed it was a Squire. The guy sanded off the Squier logo ever so smoothly and put on a Fender logo.


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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:46 am
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Actually, I believe the decals were still on top of the lacquer in 1961 (what year did they stop using nitrocellulose on necks?) and as such often got scuffed to the extent people sometimes just peeled them off to make the guitar look tidier - there was nothing collectable about a '61 Strat back then, after all.

Still, I agree with all the advice above. It's possible to go at least a long way towards verifying the instrument even without the decals, and a good look inside the neck pocket, the pickup and control cavities, at the electronics and at the heel end of the neck would be absolutely basic requirements. Some people here will have intelligent questions to ask about dowel holes in the body, the placement of the trussrod adjuster in the heel, what's to be seen beneath any paint chips, and all sorts of other exciting details.

And if the guitar has only one owner he should be able to provide a reasonable amount of "provenance" information, for example: where did he buy it, has he still got the receipt, does the guitar still have its case, are there any early photos of him with the guitar, was he in a band that could be corroborated...? Etc.

Antique furniture prices are asked for vintage guitars and kosher sellers will expect to have to provide all of this sort of information.

None of that will ultimately prove anything - everything can be faked, and in this field often is. Which is why any '50s or '60s guitar is the object of acute suspicion and nobody should pay the prices asked for such things if they are not very confident of what they are doing.

Which takes us to the price. A missing decal absolutely does hurt the value, and in a market where such instruments often go well into five figures you should expect the absent logo to knock thousands off the cost. How many thousands, I have no idea - you need to ask a proper vintage guitar expert about that.

And, basscat125, we're bound to ask: what price is this '61?

The answer to that will give us grist for plenty more enjoyable speculation. And if you care to unzip those photos and post them here we can likely help quite a bit further as well.

Good luck - C

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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:19 am
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To post the pics on here
Click the winzip file and then click "Extract" and save the files to your desktop

Open a post on here ready for your pics (you have to put each pic on a new line to stop them getting all over the place in your post)

Open another tab and go here http://tinypic.com/

Click "Browse" and find your first picture and then alter "default" to "message board 640x480"

Upload pic and then left click "Image for forums and message boards", it'll turn black .

Right click it, select "copy" then come back to your post and right click and select "paste"

Picture will show up as a picture if you select "Preview" or "Submit"

repeat on a fresh line for each additional picture

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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:21 am
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Fender started spraying over logo in 1968.


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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:06 am
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Ceri wrote:
Actually, I believe the decals were still on top of the lacquer in 1961 (what year did they stop using nitrocellulose on necks?)

atolleter wrote:
Fender started spraying over logo in 1968.

Ceri and atolleter, I stand corrected guys! For some reason I had '58 in mind. Duh :oops:

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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:17 am
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Nobby1974 wrote:
Ceri and atolleter, I stand corrected guys! For some reason I had '58 in mind. Duh :oops:

Haha - no sweat, man! :)

Anyhow: I wonder if basscat125 is going to tell us any more on this one...?

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:18 pm
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Incidently, last week went to see a friend who owns a guitar shop. He had this guitar in consignment from a customer who thought he had a good deal on a vintage guitar but was missing the decal as well, suspicious of course we took it apart. Turned out, once again some fellow paid $1700 for a fake. A really good fake I might add, they went all out with bakelite plastics, slab board, cloth wiring, etc... It plays so good, great relic job over all and matching case. I traded $500 worth of gear for it. But none the less, a guy thought he got a good deal and is now out $1200, not cool.


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Post subject: Re: 1961 Strat Missing Headstock Logo
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:57 am
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I agree faking a guitar is not cool. However, greed will get you everytime you try to get something for nothing. What is someone thinking when offered something for sale at a below wholesale price?


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