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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:04 am
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i was only 5 so i dont know, but just how easy was it in 1990 to to get a hi-res copy of the correct, current fender logo, use software to create your own serial number, print it onto the correct material, and apply it to the guitar in such a genuine looking way ?

lets not forget back then internet, art editing software, hi-res photos/printing, all of that stuff either didnt exist or was in its infancy, especially to 'average joe'.


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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:14 am
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Blertles wrote:
As for the 'Mouse Ears'- this is just a rout pattern that is a common sight on stratocasters..

Right. And just to add to that, in the pre-CNC days when necks didn't quite fit the neck pocket perfectly at the factory an easy way to sort it out quickly was simply to run a hand-held router into the two corners of the cavity so that the only point of contact across the end of the neck was now in the middle, which meant that the scale length worked OK, which is the crucial bit of the construction.

Michael7, you can easily see in your photo of the neck pocket that a router has been driven into the corner in that way and chipped the wood a little, which shows it was done after the original routing of the pocket. It was such an easy way to get necks to fit that it became a standard procedure and when CNC routing came along the "mouse ear" shape (the name coming from the resemblance to Mickey Mouse's ears) was incorporated into the computer pattern and to this day most Fender neck pockets are made that shape, unless they are Reissue models.

Interestingly, in the past the Far Eastern factories making counterfeit Fenders tended not to do the mouse ears so it is a feature that suggests - but does not prove - that the guitar came from a Fender factory rather than an imitator. For that and a row of other reasons I'm reasonably sure this is not a counterfeit guitar, though we can't be absolutely certain.

To add to what Blertles has been saying about the black plastic rod plug, I think that was also found on the USA made Performer guitar from 1985, and the 1997 Fender California Series Strat definitely had a black plastic liner, so whereas most of us think it means a guitar didn't come from Corona that ain't necessarily so. Though of course in the main it suggests Mexican, Japanese or Korean manufacture.

I have two alternate suggestions about this guitar.

The first is that if we take the decal out of the equation then all of us would ID this as a '90s Mexican Strat, pure and simple. The only complicating factor is that decal - and folks using those to turn a MIM or a Squier into a US Strat goes way back (sadly, we had fake decals in "the old days", kids...). Usually decal swaps were done by teenagers in their bedrooms with the intent of impressing their school buddies that their guitar was more expensive than it really was and they are mostly badly applied and easy to spot. However, applying and relacquering a decal is not rocket science and can be done perfectly convincingly by only reasonably careful hands.

So one possibility is that this is simply a MIM Strat with a fake decal.

The second theory is that this guitar is exactly what it claims to be, a US Fender with some of the work and specs coming from the Mexican plant. 1990 was the first year of guitar production at Ensenada and in those days the woodwork was being made in Corona and then sent south for finishing and assembly with MIM hardware. Some of the necks and bodies also came back across the border again and were used in US spec models: at that particular moment in production history which line had which components hadn't settled down into the divisions we now recognise. We shouldn't take things like pots and five-way switches as gospel, especially at that fluid moment in manufacturing.

The format of the date on the neck suggests nothing more than that that part of the process was likely done at Ensenada. "Oct/12/1991" is an unusual way to write a date on any part of this planet, but we shouldn't read more into it than that it just happened to be the way that guy was writing dates at that moment.

So. My own prefered theory would be that this guitar has a neck and body made in Corona, shipped south for finishing and assembly, and then for some no doubt utterly mundane reason of fulfilling a production order shipped north again and labelled and sold as a US Strat. Under labelling law there's nothing improper about that, and everything else about it is what Fender mean when they say "specifications may change without notice", and similar phrases.

Long post, but then it's a nice knotty issue.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:33 am
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Ceri wrote:
Blertles wrote:
"Oct/12/1991" is an unusual way to write a date on any part of this planet, but we shouldn't read more into it than that it just happened to be the way that guy was writing dates at that moment.


No, it is exactly the format they used in Ensenada Mexico. It stands for OCTobre, the 12th of 1991.
Besides that day is may Birthday so I want that body 8) :shock: :lol:

All the best,
Robin

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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:30 am
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Many thanks to all for the detailed and helpful responses. You guys are really coming through for me! I'll try to take this all in and then direct any questions I have back to the individual responders. Thanks again, I feel like we are getting to the bottom of this.


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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:18 am
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Robinstrat wrote:
Ceri wrote:
"Oct/12/1991" is an unusual way to write a date on any part of this planet, but we shouldn't read more into it than that it just happened to be the way that guy was writing dates at that moment.

No, it is exactly the format they used in Ensenada Mexico. It stands for OCTobre, the 12th of 1991.
Besides that day is may Birthday so I want that body 8) :shock: :lol:

Haha - OK, well then I should have said "'Oct/12/1991' is an unusual way to write a date on most parts of this planet". Certainly I've never come across it as anything other than an individual quirk and I've travelled very widely - but then I've never been to Mexico, so I don't know about that.

Still, if you're right then that seems to further support my "prefered theory" - so I like what you say! :D

By the way, Robin, that was your birthday? You are SO young...! [Ceri sighs wistfully for lost youth.]

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:39 am
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Hi Michael7,

The specs of the guitar exactly matches that of a standard Stratocaster that was made in Mexico in the Ensenada factory during the ealry nineties.

I do remember that for a (very) brief period some of these guitars also came out of the US factory with exactly the same specs. I'm not 100% sure about this anymore but I recollect that the individual parts of these guitars were made in Mexico while final assembly was done in the US. The very few I saw of this series had a Made in US/USA (?) stamp on the backside of the neck just above the neck pocket (thus visible when assembled). I've never seen such a guitar with the Made in USA decal on the front of the headstock like yours, but maybe they changed that later....

The name of the beast is Standard Stratocaster, which was a model positioned under the American Standard.

BTW: the s-s-h routing in the body seems out of place for me. To my knowledge MIM Strats of that period always had h-s-h routings.

B.


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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:58 am
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Hi Michael,

I see you posted this over here - hopefully someone from Fender might comment on it. As I noted in my post over on Strat Talk I believe your particular Strat was made to basically what would be MIJ/MIM Standard specs here in the USA (or at least assembled in the USA with enough domestic content to "qualify") and designated "for export only" basically so Fender could charge a higher price for them than they could if marked as "Made in Japan" (as these predate the Ensinada facility). I think they might have been supposed to have a different prefix, but some of them got the "E" prefix decals. Of course these "export only" Fenders do have a way of making it back into the USA on the used market.

From looking at them I believe these were of a somewhat higher quality than those "I" series that had "Made in USA" stamped into the wood on the neck heel that were closer to Squier level.


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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:14 am
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Bobby1 wrote:
I'm not 100% sure about this anymore but I recollect that the individual parts of these guitars were made in Mexico while final assembly was done in the US.

Except that, at least according to Tony Bacon's book, bodies and necks were being made at Corona and shipped to Ensenada for finishing and assembly, rather than the other way around. He says the Mexican plant wasn't manufacturing wooden parts yet at the time of Micheal7's Strat.

If anything, this Strat has a US neck and body, probably put together with Mexican parts that side of the border and then sold as an American guitar along the lines of what John C is suggesting.


Bobby1 wrote:
BTW: the s-s-h routing in the body seems out of place for me. To my knowledge MIM Strats of that period always had h-s-h routings.

Yes, I do think that humbucker route may hold a crucial clue. If someone could find an exact match for that shape it would get us a long way down the road.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:09 pm
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I'm on a break from work so can only add a brief comment.

It is not obvious from the photos I have already posted, but the adjuster on my neck takes a metric hex wrench. Does that help with anything? I am not clear if any US spec necks had the adjuster at the headstock like mine, or were all the US ones at the heel of the neck?

Do the markings on the neck mean anything? Does the round 2 stamp correspond with production in a specific place? As you can see, at one time the neck had one of the little rectangular white stickers with lines for inspectors' initials or whatever, but it was peeled away before the initials went on. Was that sticker used in certain factories?

More at the end of the day when I have some time to reply to the many helpful posts.

Michael


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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:08 pm
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Ceri wrote:
By the way, Robin, that was your birthday? You are SO young...! [Ceri sighs wistfully for lost youth.]

Cheers - C


Well, the Birthday I have every year, ehmm - my actual birth year was pre-CBS(the very year before) :shock: :D I think that makes me vintage somehow.

Cheers,
Robin

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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:27 pm
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Ceri wrote:
The second theory is that this guitar is exactly what it claims to be, a US Fender with some of the work and specs coming from the Mexican plant. 1990 was the first year of guitar production at Ensenada and in those days the woodwork was being made in Corona and then sent south for finishing and assembly with MIM hardware. Some of the necks and bodies also came back across the border again and were used in US spec models: at that particular moment in production history which line had which components hadn't settled down into the divisions we now recognise. We shouldn't take things like pots and five-way switches as gospel, especially at that fluid moment in manufacturing.

The format of the date on the neck suggests nothing more than that that part of the process was likely done at Ensenada. "Oct/12/1991" is an unusual way to write a date on any part of this planet, but we shouldn't read more into it than that it just happened to be the way that guy was writing dates at that moment.

So. My own prefered theory would be that this guitar has a neck and body made in Corona, shipped south for finishing and assembly, and then for some no doubt utterly mundane reason of fulfilling a production order shipped north again and labelled and sold as a US Strat. Under labelling law there's nothing improper about that, and everything else about it is what Fender mean when they say "specifications may change without notice", and similar phrases.

Long post, but then it's a nice knotty issue.

Cheers - C


+1 Ceri.

http://planetbotch.blogspot.co.uk/2012/ ... sters.html


Ive looked at this link - I think this sums it up well. Not to be confused with the 'California Series', this guitar and Michael's guitar are a very similar item. I believe this guitar to be a the blue prints for the MIM standard range- before the 'Squire Series' (Nick's mim strat). A rarity- I dont think these were in production for any longer than a couple years- if that even.

It's nice to see something different pop up every now and then isn't it :)

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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:51 pm
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Just send customer service the sn and they will give you he info


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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:43 pm
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tbazzone wrote:
Just send customer service the sn and they will give you he info


Unfortunately it's too old; Fender's consumer relations' database only goes back to 1993.


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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:20 pm
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I'll try to reply to the various points all of you have made in one post.

Blertles

Thanks for the detailed post and the photos of your Ultra and Plus. To answer your questions, yes, my neck plate is plain, no Fender marking and no Micro-Tilt hole. Obviously no Micro Tilt adjuster in the body either. I also have no truss rod button at the heel of the neck, only at the head stock. It takes a 5mm tool to adjust it.

If I understand your point about the variation of the font of the STRATOCASTER decal, I assume you mean that different ones were used and mine appears to be within the range of real Fender decals.

On my neck, the lined white sticker seems to have been removed before it was initialed. I could determine the size of the sticker however from the residue, and it appears to be the same sticker as your G Romero one. I think that points to this being a Fender part.

No, I definitely do not think my guitar is an American Standard and tried to emphasize that in my OP. I am just trying to understand as fully as I can what I actually have. The PLANETBOTCH link was very helpful in terms of where my model fits in this period of transition at Fender, but still does not quite address why Fender would have sold these with markings identical to American Standards of that era, which is what I thought I was buying in 1996.

In your second post, you commented on these guitars not being made for more than a couple of years, but the range of Strat serial numbers of just the four with photos in this thread or its links are from 938389 to 968825. That is a range of 30000+ units. Presumably the serial numbers were going on every Fender guitar, but maybe someone could take a stab at how long this period might have been.

Moochy13

Good to have pointed that out about it not being as easy in 1996 or earlier to have created a fake decal as it is these day. Back when I bought the guitar, I didn't know that kind of fraud was done, and it was not something I would have known to look for.

Ceri

Thanks, great insight on the production techniques and I can see exactly what you mean about the routing and the mouse ears that Blertles brought up.

I realize of course that my guitar could have a fake decal on it, and if so, I will be eating a lot of crow. I will take it to the luthier at the nearest official Fender shop and ask for an opinion. I am convinced the decal is not something applied later, but as should be clear by now, I am no expert and am trying to learn here. But my guitar shares so many common features with other ones identified in this thread, I have to believe the preponderance of evidence is that my guitar is of the same origin as all these others and the chances of so many that can be identified at one time 20+ years after production tend to support them being real Fender products in my mind.

I think your suggestions of the origin of the guitar are as good as any, and unless someone within Fender knows more details about the production history at that time, perhaps as good as I am likely to get. Thank you for that.

If I go with your idea that my guitar is a MIM with a USA decal, are all the other details of its construction and components consistent with MIM origin?

Robinstrat

I see you are in Germany. I bought my first guitar in Wiesbaden sometime about 1966 when I was finishing high school. It was a sunburst Ibanez with really cheesy looking pickups. Everybody else I knew got the Hofner S-type guitars that looked like they were vinyl covered, but I didn't warm up to those. In 68 I ordered a Verithin, also in sunburst, with the later blade humbuckers, which I have to this day.

Sorry, I don't think my white Strat-o-Squier is likely to be on the market! Glad it shares your birthday however.

Bobby1

You have given me a new guitar to research! I did not know about the Standard Strat until this thread. I will have to get some Fender history books and do some web searches to learn more. Thanks for pointing these out to me. It sounds like you may have been a Fender insider. One thing I will highlight is that my serial number is the lowest one of the 4 detailed on this thread, so it would have been earlier production than the others, but all of these examples over the 30000 guitar range of serial numbers have the Fender USA decals on the head stock. So Fender had to be doing them that way for a while.


Ok, now the question I have for everyone. How would I describe this guitar if I was putting it on eBay? I have zero plans to do so, but how would one ethically and accurately describe it? Everyone and his brother seeing the listing would be sending "withdraw that fake" emails to eBay with the certainty it is a Squier with a Fender decal.

Also, how would you value it in todays market? The one for sale that I linked to in the thread may be overpriced but is that a realistic starting point? Is the odd origin of the guitar a plus in terms of rarity and value? Again, I don't ever plan to sell this guitar, so it is all hypothetical.

Thanks again to all who have contributed, I have learned a lot, it is most appreciated.


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Post subject: Re: Did Fender build fake MIA Strats in 1989-90?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:50 pm
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One additional question. Note my guitar body has a small hole next to the middle pickup and another blind hole in the neck pocket. I have read these are for holding the guitar during some machining process. Do any other USA built bodies from this era share those drillings? Are they useful for identification?


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