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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:08 pm
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I have to disagree with some of the comments on this one...

mxvin wrote:
all I can say is there must be a good reason or it would be done already.


I suspect the people at Gibson said the same thing when Les Paul created "The Log". I bet some folks felt the same way when our dear Uncle Leo was working on those first Broadcasters. And putting a tremolo on a guitar...whatever was Leo thinking with those first Strats? Good thing he didn't listen :-).

Sometimes the reason that something hasn't been done is simply because no one has really thought of it, had a particular need for it or simply had the guts to try it. If some folks didn't like to mess around and experiment with things...if some people didn't dare to be different...we wouldn't even have electricity (beyond the occasional lightning bolt thrown by the Gods!), let alone the electric guitar...or the internet for us to sit around and debate all this!

People can -never- lead the way simply by following the sins of the past.


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They say brass is too bright so steel or SS woul dbe even more so.


I have no idea what you're basing that on but I have to completely disagree with that. I've had two Strats now with brass trem blocks and based on my own experience the brass is most definitely brighter than the steel...at least as far as trem blocks go.


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Also, unless you are a wammy bar nut when would a nut ever wear out???


It's an imperfect world...stuff like this DOES wear out. Between tuning and even just those strings vibrating, yes, some wear does occur. Beyond that, maybe someone filed a nut for heavier strings and now wants to use lighter strings...that would certainly require a nut replacement, yes? Maybe someone broke one while refinishing an instrument or maybe even just lost it. For that matter, it's even something I could consider for a project guitar...just for the sake of doing something different. It's even something I may consider at some point to get that stupid LSR off my '96 MIM.

Beyond wanting to experiment with various materials and such, there are PLENTY of reasons for needing...or wanting...a new nut.

Quote:
Bone or bone like are the best for a reason......



Yea? What's the reason? This is like saying that mahogany (or alder or ash or poplar, etc., etc.,) is the "best" wood for a guitar or that a Strat (or Tele or Les Paul, etc., etc.,) is the "best" guitar. "Best" is a HIGHLY subjective opinion. If it were truly best for all people in all situations, there wouldn't be a need for plastic, brass or roller nuts or anything else as EVERY guitar would simply have bone. More over, as siamese pointed out there, fretting a note seems to negate the advantages that bone may or may not present in either case....so how exactly is bone best? Sorry but I can't see that as anything more than a subjective preconception as apposed to any kind of genuine fact.


I'm not trying to be rude here but instead of providing any kind of factual evidence with your comments, it sounds like you're simply trying to discourage people from experimenting or trying something new.

Jim


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:11 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:


Yea...I'll admit that I didn't bother to actually search this one. Was more of an observation than anything as I've never really seen any guitars with steel nuts or seen anything like it on various parts shelves or anything.

Sometimes I forget that I can look stuff like that up on the internet now a days...even when I'm using the internet to ask about it :-)

Jim


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:12 pm
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Hhhhmmm...here's an interesting thought.

In light of the comments there about frets and such as well as obvious machining issues regarding metal...what about acrylic? As it turns out I happen to have access to a beautiful pair of laser cutters up at the college. Not only that, but I recently inherited a couple of nice chunks of black acrylic that I've been searching for a project for (not to mention a ton of plexi and a bunch of acrylic tubes). Technically speaking, I could even take a nut off a favorite Strat, scan it in, then cut an identical replacement out of acrylic and/or cut it precisely for the string gauge I'm using instead of having to file. If nothing else, the acrylic is certainly denser than the usual plastic nut so it might even test that theory about frets and such.

Thoughts?

BTW...just for the record, I don't actually need a new nut or anything. If anything I think I'm just looking for a low-cost/no cost little project to keep my hands and mind busy while I'm dealing with all this family stuff since Dad passed away. Doinkin' with something like this sounds like it might be kind of fun and maybe a good learning experience.


Peace,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:25 pm
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Not particularly saying that a standard steel nut would be "better" than a roller. That said though, a roller nut (even an LSR) typically requires some degree of modification to the neck/fretboard to install...usually you have to remove a degree of wood there and as such isn't really reversible

_ Iomitus



You are right Iomitus


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:05 pm
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lomitus wrote:
I have to disagree with some of the comments on this one...

mxvin wrote:
all I can say is there must be a good reason or it would be done already.


I suspect the people at Gibson said the same thing when Les Paul created "The Log". I bet some folks felt the same way when our dear Uncle Leo was working on those first Broadcasters. And putting a tremolo on a guitar...whatever was Leo thinking with those first Strats? Good thing he didn't listen :-).

Sometimes the reason that something hasn't been done is simply because no one has really thought of it, had a particular need for it or simply had the guts to try it. If some folks didn't like to mess around and experiment with things...if some people didn't dare to be different...we wouldn't even have electricity (beyond the occasional lightning bolt thrown by the Gods!), let alone the electric guitar...or the internet for us to sit around and debate all this!

People can -never- lead the way simply by following the sins of the past.


Quote:
They say brass is too bright so steel or SS woul dbe even more so.


I have no idea what you're basing that on but I have to completely disagree with that. I've had two Strats now with brass trem blocks and based on my own experience the brass is most definitely brighter than the steel...at least as far as trem blocks go.


Quote:
Also, unless you are a wammy bar nut when would a nut ever wear out???


It's an imperfect world...stuff like this DOES wear out. Between tuning and even just those strings vibrating, yes, some wear does occur. Beyond that, maybe someone filed a nut for heavier strings and now wants to use lighter strings...that would certainly require a nut replacement, yes? Maybe someone broke one while refinishing an instrument or maybe even just lost it. For that matter, it's even something I could consider for a project guitar...just for the sake of doing something different. It's even something I may consider at some point to get that stupid LSR off my '96 MIM.

Beyond wanting to experiment with various materials and such, there are PLENTY of reasons for needing...or wanting...a new nut.

Quote:
Bone or bone like are the best for a reason......



Yea? What's the reason? This is like saying that mahogany (or alder or ash or poplar, etc., etc.,) is the "best" wood for a guitar or that a Strat (or Tele or Les Paul, etc., etc.,) is the "best" guitar. "Best" is a HIGHLY subjective opinion. If it were truly best for all people in all situations, there wouldn't be a need for plastic, brass or roller nuts or anything else as EVERY guitar would simply have bone. More over, as siamese pointed out there, fretting a note seems to negate the advantages that bone may or may not present in either case....so how exactly is bone best? Sorry but I can't see that as anything more than a subjective preconception as apposed to any kind of genuine fact.


I'm not trying to be rude here but instead of providing any kind of factual evidence with your comments, it sounds like you're simply trying to discourage people from experimenting or trying something new.

Jim

take it easy Jim...not attacking you.
First off when Les and Leo did their thing the solid body guitar was in its infancy. Not like now where most things in that regard have been tried most likely thats what I meant. Also I didnt mention trem block once. Only about nuts. I bet a steel nut would be brighter then brass....just a guess. As far as bone nuts or similar composition they have been used and praised by top luthiers for decades. It woudl take someone 30 years to wear out a bone nut with tuning strings and string vibration....another guess on my part.

You want factual evidence.....go see what all the best guitars have and have had for years and years.
I am not discouraging you at all.......go make your steel nuts and have fun with them.

PS.....sympathies on your Dad's passing


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:14 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:

Ah-ha. Though... unless I'm mistaken I think the first link is to a chromed nut that is probably not steel underneath. The second is talking about a steel alloy for frets and says he doesn't know if it's been used for nuts.

The third link is indeed offering steel nuts. And charging for them exactly double the price of a bone nut. That pretty much supports what I was saying about the difficulty of working steel to adjust the slotting when setting up the guitar.

Steel is horribly hard when you have to work it by hand. Not impossible - but not fun. I speak as someone who installed his first set of stainless steel frets a few months ago. This is what just a couple of snips did to my fret-end nippers - ouch:

Image

There's a reason people such as Mike Eldred refuse to work with stainless steel for things like frets.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:25 pm
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Ceri wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:

Ah-ha. Though... unless I'm mistaken I think the first link is to a chromed nut that is probably not steel underneath. The second is talking about a steel alloy for frets and says he doesn't know if it's been used for nuts.

The third link is indeed offering steel nuts. And charging for them exactly double the price of a bone nut. That pretty much supports what I was saying about the difficulty of working steel to adjust the slotting when setting up the guitar.

Steel is horribly hard when you have to work it by hand. Not impossible - but not fun. I speak as someone who installed his first set of stainless steel frets a few months ago. This is what just a couple of snips did to my fret-end nippers - ouch:

Image

There's a reason people such as Mike Eldred refuse to work with stainless steel for things like frets.

Cheers - C


Even though the type of "metal" is not mentioned in the first link, the implication is that the nut is made out of metal, not something just chrome plated.

No, the second link does start out talking about metal nuts, then he confuses things by throwing frets in there.

Agree with the rest of your post. :D

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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:22 pm
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Here's another good discussion of nuts. The author seems to favor steel nuts as well...

http://www.frudua.com/guitar_nut_material.htm


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:53 am
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Super Vee has a locking nut that the locking fixture is removable and your left with an OEM looking steel nut. I am not sure but I imagine they would sell you just the nut if you called them. they are really nice and helpful. The Blade Runner is a great tremolo too.

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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:58 am
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Highline wrote:
Here's another good discussion of nuts. The author seems to favor steel nuts as well...

http://www.frudua.com/guitar_nut_material.htm


Bone. Bone is in my opinion by far the best material to be used for nut construction as it features volume, a wide open tone, strength against mechanical shocks and offers a fine tuning reliability especially if periodically lubricated.


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:21 am
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steel on steel is never a good thing

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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:35 pm
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mxvin wrote:
Highline wrote:
Here's another good discussion of nuts. The author seems to favor steel nuts as well...

http://www.frudua.com/guitar_nut_material.htm


Bone. Bone is in my opinion by far the best material to be used for nut construction as it features volume, a wide open tone, strength against mechanical shocks and offers a fine tuning reliability especially if periodically lubricated.


Thanks MX, you are correct!


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:15 pm
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Highline wrote:
mxvin wrote:
Highline wrote:
Here's another good discussion of nuts. The author seems to favor steel nuts as well...

http://www.frudua.com/guitar_nut_material.htm


Bone. Bone is in my opinion by far the best material to be used for nut construction as it features volume, a wide open tone, strength against mechanical shocks and offers a fine tuning reliability especially if periodically lubricated.


Thanks MX, you are correct!


Just going by what I take away from what I read........


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:37 pm
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Ceri wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:

Ah-ha. Though... unless I'm mistaken I think the first link is to a chromed nut that is probably not steel underneath. The second is talking about a steel alloy for frets and says he doesn't know if it's been used for nuts.

The third link is indeed offering steel nuts. And charging for them exactly double the price of a bone nut. That pretty much supports what I was saying about the difficulty of working steel to adjust the slotting when setting up the guitar.

Steel is horribly hard when you have to work it by hand. Not impossible - but not fun. I speak as someone who installed his first set of stainless steel frets a few months ago. This is what just a couple of snips did to my fret-end nippers - ouch:

Image

There's a reason people such as Mike Eldred refuse to work with stainless steel for things like frets.

Cheers - C


Your new found maturity is inspiring. :D


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:00 am
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DetroitBlues wrote:
I wouldn't want a stainless steel nut. It will pit too quickly. Brass is a much softer metal.

I don't quite get your logic on this.
Perhaps it was a typo and you meant it the other way round?

One of the qualities of common stainless steel (like 304, which is prolly the most common grade) is much higher resistance to corrosion and erosion than regular carbon steels and carbon steels have a much higher resistance than soft metals like brass ... so the reality is .... stainless is practically impervious compared to brass.

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