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Post subject: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:19 am
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Remember...this is a -GUITAR- forum :-)

(Figured that would get folks attention...)

Ok...I know in my years I've certainly seen a few brass nuts and obviously most locking nuts are made of steel and of course I've seen various variations on roller nuts and such. It occurred to me though that I don't think I've ever seen a steel/stainless steel nut. Seems to me that if a steel trem block and steel saddles would make such a difference regarding issues as sustain and tone and such (compared with zinc)..and obviously they do...that a steel nut would certainly be better than plastic or bone in this same regard, yes? And while it would likely be much harder to file, it certainly wouldn't be impossible either and one would think such a thing would have much greater durability compared with either plastic or even bone, yes?

So anyone know why we don't see more of them out there? Or is it simply the final stage of the dreaded disease "beer nuts"? :-)

Peace,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:32 am
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Like fender roller nut on Strat Plus ?


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:37 am
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No...not a roller nut (or even an LSR for that matter)...I've seen plenty of those. I just mean a traditionally shaped nut, except made of steel/stainless steel. I occurred to me that I've never seen one and kind of wondering why...


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:54 am
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Yes I know wath your talking about , what I say is steel nut are not new and they are called or same as roller nut.

You think a all steel standard shape nut is better than roller nut ?
Probably some guitars builder try them before with no good result ?

Made steel nut yourself and come back to tell how is the tone


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:00 am
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I wouldn't want a stainless steel nut. It will pit too quickly. Brass is a much softer metal.

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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:31 am
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stratele52 wrote:
Yes I know wath your talking about , what I say is steel nut are not new and they are called or same as roller nut.

You think a all steel standard shape nut is better than roller nut ?
Probably some guitars builder try them before with no good result ?

Made steel nut yourself and come back to tell how is the tone


Not particularly saying that a standard steel nut would be "better" than a roller. That said though, a roller nut (even an LSR) typically requires some degree of modification to the neck/fretboard to install...usually you have to remove a degree of wood there and as such isn't really reversible if one doesn't care for it. I made that mistake with my '96 MIM...installed an LSR and yea, had to take some wood off the fretboard so now I'm stuck with the LSR. It's not "bad" but it's just not impressive either...if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't. I'm thinking that a steel nut could perhaps make a nice direct replacement without having to actually modify anything there. Likewise, a roller nut or an LSR does have "moving parts", which in theory presents the potential for something to freeze, break/fall apart or otherwise cause problems and/or potentially rob you of some sustain. A steel nut on the other hand would make direct contact between the strings and the neck/fretboard with no moving parts to break.

I am toying with the idea of making one. I actually have access to some nice scraps of steel but the problem is that I don't really have any way to machine it or cut the string slots properly or anything. That said, again I'm just toying with the idea...kind of wondering if there's some specific reason why we haven't seen more of these.


DetroitBlues wrote:
I wouldn't want a stainless steel nut. It will pit too quickly. Brass is a much softer metal.


I would think how quickly a steel nut would pit would likely depend on the hardness of the steel...if we were talking a high carbon steel, yea...I could see that happening rather quickly. Stainless on the other hand...or even a nickle or chrome plating...I wouldn't think that would be much of a problem. Obviously we've seen plated locking nuts and those don't tend to pit or rust too badly (assuming one takes care of it of course).

The problem I have with a brass nut is that I suspect it would be similar to brass trem block...personally I've found the brass trem blocks to sound too bright. In fact I just took a brass block off my '03 MIM because I -really- didn't like the tone...the full size zinc block actually sounds better to me (and I'm going to be ordering a steel GFS for that one soon). I could be wrong but I suspect the same would be true of a brass nut as well...I'm sure the sustain would likely be better, but I suspect it would alter the tone as well, which is why I was wondering about steel.



Honestly this is more about curiosity than anything else (at least for the moment). With all of the concerns and issues and such about sustain and tone and all the little things that we Strat players often do regarding that, once I realized that I had never seen a steel nut before...other than roller/LSR, it kind of surprised me and I got to wondering about the "why". Seems like a reasonable theory so I got to wondering why we haven't seen it put more into practical application.

Peace,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:38 am
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what about nut of bone ?


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:26 am
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maybe the reason for no non-moving steel nuts is to do with steel strings and how easily they move - or dont move - over a steel nut. i assume bone and plastic will always give way to metal when push comes to shove, keeping your strings from snagging, snapping etc. maybe a steel one would cause too much friction ?

i dont know, just thinking out loud. i see why you're intrigued though, it certainly makes sense to use one if possible.


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:33 am
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Hi lomitus: almost all nuts need setting up once they're installed, which usually involves adjusting the nut slots downwards at least a little. As has already been mentioned, brass is relatively soft (it's an alloy of mostly copper) so you can file it reasonably easily. Steel (iron and carbon) is a heck of a lot harder and so making slot adjustments to it would be a nightmare.

I'm certain that's why we don't see it used for nuts.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:21 pm
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lomitus wrote:
stratele52 wrote:
Yes I know wath your talking about , what I say is steel nut are not new and they are called or same as roller nut.

You think a all steel standard shape nut is better than roller nut ?
Probably some guitars builder try them before with no good result ?

Made steel nut yourself and come back to tell how is the tone


Not particularly saying that a standard steel nut would be "better" than a roller. That said though, a roller nut (even an LSR) typically requires some degree of modification to the neck/fretboard to install...usually you have to remove a degree of wood there and as such isn't really reversible if one doesn't care for it. I made that mistake with my '96 MIM...installed an LSR and yea, had to take some wood off the fretboard so now I'm stuck with the LSR. It's not "bad" but it's just not impressive either...if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't. I'm thinking that a steel nut could perhaps make a nice direct replacement without having to actually modify anything there. Likewise, a roller nut or an LSR does have "moving parts", which in theory presents the potential for something to freeze, break/fall apart or otherwise cause problems and/or potentially rob you of some sustain. A steel nut on the other hand would make direct contact between the strings and the neck/fretboard with no moving parts to break.

I am toying with the idea of making one. I actually have access to some nice scraps of steel but the problem is that I don't really have any way to machine it or cut the string slots properly or anything. That said, again I'm just toying with the idea...kind of wondering if there's some specific reason why we haven't seen more of these.


DetroitBlues wrote:
I wouldn't want a stainless steel nut. It will pit too quickly. Brass is a much softer metal.


I would think how quickly a steel nut would pit would likely depend on the hardness of the steel...if we were talking a high carbon steel, yea...I could see that happening rather quickly. Stainless on the other hand...or even a nickle or chrome plating...I wouldn't think that would be much of a problem. Obviously we've seen plated locking nuts and those don't tend to pit or rust too badly (assuming one takes care of it of course).

The problem I have with a brass nut is that I suspect it would be similar to brass trem block...personally I've found the brass trem blocks to sound too bright. In fact I just took a brass block off my '03 MIM because I -really- didn't like the tone...the full size zinc block actually sounds better to me (and I'm going to be ordering a steel GFS for that one soon). I could be wrong but I suspect the same would be true of a brass nut as well...I'm sure the sustain would likely be better, but I suspect it would alter the tone as well, which is why I was wondering about steel.



Honestly this is more about curiosity than anything else (at least for the moment). With all of the concerns and issues and such about sustain and tone and all the little things that we Strat players often do regarding that, once I realized that I had never seen a steel nut before...other than roller/LSR, it kind of surprised me and I got to wondering about the "why". Seems like a reasonable theory so I got to wondering why we haven't seen it put more into practical application.

Peace,
Jim



Nickel chrome is even worse, I've seen so many Les Paul bridges that have fallen apart that were nickel chrome...

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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:47 pm
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There are plenty of metal nuts out there. Like locking nuts.

But...what's the big deal tonewise about a metal or steel nut. Doesn't it only really come into play when you play an open string? In effect, aren't you creating a metal nut every time you fret a note? By the way, the frets on my strat are stainless steel, so I guess that gives me a stainless steel nut when I fret.

Oh, and then there are the guitars that have a "0" fret.


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:08 pm
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all I can say is there must be a good reason or it would be done already.
They say brass is too bright so steel or SS woul dbe even more so.
Also, unless you are a wammy bar nut when would a nut ever wear out???

Bone or bone like are the best for a reason......


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:17 pm
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siamese wrote:
There are plenty of metal nuts out there. Like locking nuts.


Yea...I think we already covered that.

Quote:
But...what's the big deal tonewise about a metal or steel nut. Doesn't it only really come into play when you play an open string? In effect, aren't you creating a metal nut every time you fret a note? By the way, the frets on my strat are stainless steel, so I guess that gives me a stainless steel nut when I fret.



Hhhmmmm...yea....didn't think of that. Good point about frets and such. I suspect that would likely negate any benefits tone-wise from a metal nut. Same would probably be true with slide as well since the slide essentially acts as the frets.

Oh well...it was just a thought. Sometimes I over-look the obvious. Of course this now raises the question of what's the big hoopla about a bone nut over plastic? Seems the same logic would apply...

Peace,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:24 pm
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lomitus wrote:
siamese wrote:
There are plenty of metal nuts out there. Like locking nuts.


Yea...I think we already covered that.

Quote:
But...what's the big deal tonewise about a metal or steel nut. Doesn't it only really come into play when you play an open string? In effect, aren't you creating a metal nut every time you fret a note? By the way, the frets on my strat are stainless steel, so I guess that gives me a stainless steel nut when I fret.



Hhhmmmm...yea....didn't think of that. Good point about frets and such. I suspect that would likely negate any benefits tone-wise from a metal nut. Same would probably be true with slide as well since the slide essentially acts as the frets.

Oh well...it was just a thought. Sometimes I over-look the obvious. Of course this now raises the question of what's the big hoopla about a bone nut over plastic? Seems the same logic would apply...

Peace,
Jim

Different nut materials allow the strings to slide better and with less resistence when tuning, bending, and trem bar work. Also the nut is a factor in intonation and action.


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Post subject: Re: Nuts of steel?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:07 pm
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Google is your friend:

http://www.axesrus.co.uk/43mm-Metal-Les ... llpnut.htm

http://www.stratoblogster.com/2009/04/w ... erial.html

http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/#Metals

Lots more out there.

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