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Post subject: Setup -newbie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:47 am
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I've never attempted to do a set up on a guitar, I've got a 2001 American Strat that I bought used. I've been thinking it could probably use a good setup. Should I take it to a tech? Or should I watch some youtube videos and learn to do it myself. I've also got a cheap squier strat, should I learn on that one first?

Sean


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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:22 pm
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I recommend trying it on your own. it's not hard and it's a valuable skill to have

Here's the official setup guide: http://www.fender.com/support/articles/ ... tup-guide/

Watching a few setup how to vids on youtube or elsewhere will help too.

There isn't much you can screw up as long as you don't tighten the truss rod until something pops (which would be an amazingly stupid thing to do).

It's important to do the steps in order

If you got the guitar new, it should have come with the allen keys you need for the saddles and truss rod. A ruler with 1/64" graduations is very helpful. A capo and feeler gauges are helpful but I don't think necessary.


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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:19 pm
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CT Sean wrote:
I recommend trying it on your own. it's not hard and it's a valuable skill to have ...
+1 :!:

Cheers!
BM

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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:11 pm
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CT Sean wrote:
I recommend trying it on your own. it's not hard and it's a valuable skill to have

Here's the official setup guide: http://www.fender.com/support/articles/ ... tup-guide/

Watching a few setup how to vids on youtube or elsewhere will help too.

There isn't much you can screw up as long as you don't tighten the truss rod until something pops (which would be an amazingly stupid thing to do).

It's important to do the steps in order

If you got the guitar new, it should have come with the allen keys you need for the saddles and truss rod. A ruler with 1/64" graduations is very helpful. A capo and feeler gauges are helpful but I don't think necessary.


Here is what this should really say ....

I Don't recommend trying it on your own The First Time . it's not hard and it's a valuable skill to have, but you do need guidance the 1st time...

Watching a few setup how to vids on youtube or elsewhere will help too.
Yes but a live person explaining and making sure you understand is best ...

There IS much you can screw up as you tighten or loosen the truss rod avoiding the.... until something pops (which would be an amazingly stupid thing to do).

A ruler with 1/64" graduations is very helpful. But a metric ruler is more accurate and is usually the norm for measurements since it's universal or international. A capo and feeler gauges are helpful AND necessary.

The Fender Set up Guide is a great guide, but that is all it is. A guide not a how to...
If you care about your guitar which of course is why you asked in the first place, take it to a good reliable tech and ask him to show you what needs to be done and what you should know.
It is Trial and Error to learn how to adjust a Strat correctly. If you adjust incorrectly in one phase, the following will never fall into place, this can lead to overcompensating in the wrong area. Those little saddle screws can easily be stripped, so can the Trem screws and the truss rod really has to be adjusted correctly...
In addition if your frets need leveling, or the nut is not properly slotted for the strings, depth and string contour, then no amount of adjustment at the bridge will help.

The adjustments are simple but not that easy as everything has to work in unison....
Good luck.

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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:58 pm
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53magnatone wrote:
CT Sean wrote:
I recommend trying it on your own. it's not hard and it's a valuable skill to have...

.


Here is what this should really say ....

I Don't recommend trying it on your own The First Time . it's not hard and it's a valuable skill to have, but you do need guidance the 1st time...

Good luck.


For the record, it should actually say exactly what I wrote. You may be of the opinion that someone should not do it on their own the first time, but that does mean I have the same opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:35 pm
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The problem with trying it alone the first time is that it may get screwed up to the point it has to be taken in for a real pro setup anyhow. Never feel shy about asking a fellow musician for help. Most of us are glad to give a person a hand. If you are fairly good with tools by all means go for it.

There are some things that YouTube does not explain like: Take all your measurements and write them down before you do anything to your guitar. Look at the Fender Setup instructions, those measurements are what you need to write down to begin with. That way if things get screwed up you can put them back the way they were. If you have the same measurements as Fender says you should have - Bazinga!!! Your done, play away.

You will need a few items to start with. You need to get a small metal ruler in a hardware store ($5.00) that reads in 1/64 or 1/32nd of an inch plus millimeters (mm). A good set of screwdrivers with 1, 2, and 3 point Phillips tips. Go to a automotive store or auto department in a store for a feeler gauge (5.00 or less). An electronic tuner $10.00 and up. You need a new set of strings also if you want to do it right ($5.00+-)

There is a specific order in which the setup has to be done. Fenders setup instructions are good to use, follow them in the order that your reading them. Knowing how to put strings on so they won't slip out of tune is a skill you need to learn. It will save you a lot of headaches and money in the future.

Check this site out to begin with.

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/page/articles.html/_/tutorials/instrument-setup/solidbody-setup-i-introduction-and-headstock-r39

As a side note: We all know about opinions. It's good advice that is hard to come by.


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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:08 pm
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CT Sean wrote:
53magnatone wrote:
CT Sean wrote:
I recommend trying it on your own. it's not hard and it's a valuable skill to have...

.


Here is what this should really say ....

I Don't recommend trying it on your own The First Time . it's not hard and it's a valuable skill to have, but you do need guidance the 1st time...

Good luck.


For the record, it should actually say exactly what I wrote. You may be of the opinion that someone should not do it on their own the first time, but that does mean I have the same opinion.
:? :?:

Yes and No.... Anybody doing these adjustments for the First Time have to know what does what and why. Not trying to be my opinion over yours but advising a Newbie that there's nothing they can screw up and just go at it is not helpful.
Since when the guitar isn't feeling like it should, they won't know where to backtrack and check. This is where these guitars get damaged or the owner becomes so frustrated that they don't play the guitar....

The point is if you are going to help by giving advice then you need to voice both the pro's and con's of doing it properly and not doing it properly.

It's not just about adjustment to this or that measured increment. It's wood metal and plastic assembled in what should be a cohesive unit. Wood expands and contracts quite differently then plastic and metal expansion is imperceptible as far as we are concerned.
But just because you set up your guitar perfectly today does not mean it will be that way tomorrow. further adjustments may be needed.
Someone who has never done this before may think they did something wrong when in fact the guitar has adjusted due to the new tensions. Then it needs a bit of refinement.
Setting up a Strat perfectly is not a One time and leave it. It takes a few adjustments to get it just right..
Someone helping him and showing what happens, what is likely to happen and why is critically important the first time.
I build and rebuild completely my own guitars as well as work with wood as a profession.

Anyone can adjust a guitar, but that doesn't mean it will be as perfect as it can be. That is learned thru trial and error but you still need a guiding hand the 1st couple of times.

You Can seriously damage and/or quickly destroy a neck by not knowing how to adjust the truss rod. which really shouldn't be touched until a few steps have been taken. Those steps allow you to measure the relief in the neck correctly for your string gauge and playing preference.... Then you can know wether or not the truss rod should be adjusted.

Being to the point is precisely what needs to be known, there is too much general misinformation on the Forums and as far as playing with these adjustments there is a certain sequence as well as a feel to be learned.

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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:58 pm
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Thanks for all the advice, it's all been very helpful. One more question... How do I know if the guitar needs a proper setup ? To me the guitar sounds and plays great, is there things I can check? No reason to do the setup if its not needed, right?

Sean


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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:46 am
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Seanboy wrote:
Thanks for all the advice, it's all been very helpful. One more question... How do I know if the guitar needs a proper setup ? To me the guitar sounds and plays great, is there things I can check? No reason to do the setup if its not needed, right?
Sean
The purpose of a setup is to make your guitar sound and play the way you want it to sound and play. You say that your guitar "sounds and plays great", which would suggest that a setup is not required.

Cheers!
BM

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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:58 am
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Rule of thumb is to always 1st check to see if your new ( to you ) guitar is correctly setup.
Regardless wether it is used or brand new, all guitars need a setup, none are really ready to play or at least not as they should be since it is a personal preference issue..

That means intonation.
Keep in mind a guitar is a tempered instrument , which refers to the intonation of each string wether open or at every fret ( or note ) It's not possible to have each and every note on the fretboard perfectly in pitch, there are slight deviations so that as a whole the instrument is playable. This is actually an interesting subject, Google it and you should come up on various innovations to solve the compromise. Problem is that a guitar neck setup to play perfecly in pitch at all registers would be very difficult to play.

String height.
At the Nut each string should be just high enough so that they don't buzz on the next higher fret when pressed onto the preceding fret. ( that should happen on all strings and at all fret positions). String slots must be rounded to match the string curvature.
At the bridge the saddles should be aligned so that the string height ( relative to each other ) mimic the curvature of the fretboard at the 20th-19th fret. Radius gauges are used for this ( you can get them from http://www.stewmac.com as well as a few of the tools no guitarist should be without.

Are the frets polished or in other words have they been dressed :?: Meaning that any divots from the string friction removed, fret edges smooth and rounded in relation to the fingerboard.
Even if the guitar feels OK, just this makes a neck that much easier to play and feel..

There is more to check but this is why you need to go over a new ( to you) guitar. Once a tech goes over the guitar inside and out and adjusts where needed, it will feel like a very different guitar, One that is set up where a pro would be pleased.
All of it is not that difficult but it does take some practice and some time since each and everyone of us have personal and unique preferences as to set up.

I would highly suggest you buy this book.
2nd Edition... " The Fender Stratocaster Handbook " by Paul Balmer. Its a fun to read, but serious How to adjust a Strat. ( there is also a Tele book by the same author ) comparisons on MIM, MIA, Vintage, MIK, MIC. A section on key players and their setups...
Well worth the $27 .

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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:12 am
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I'm going to toss my own $.02 worth in here (mainly because I happen to disagree with a couple of magnatone's comments there). These are just my own personal opinions so PLEASE use them as such.

First off, I don't see any real reason why a newbie shouldn't do their own setups the first time as long as they use a bit of caution and some common sense. The number one thing to be careful with of course is the neck. It's not just a matter of over-tightening until the truss rod pops (which yea...is REALLY stupid). Improper neck relief, either too tight or too loose -will- affect the playability of the instrument. For some reason the last couple of guitars I've acquired actually had the truss rod completely loosened...lots of bow in the neck as a result (and in one case the one person tried to compensate by raising the bridge....uhhhgggg).

Second to that, one should be careful with the nut...this is probably the single biggest mistake I see people make. -If- you keep the same gauge and same brand of strings and assuming the guitar was setup properly for those strings, you shouldn't have to do anything here really (except perhaps add just a tich of graphite). However if you ever change string gauge, you WILL need to address the nut. If you ever decide to go with heavier strings, the nut will need to be PROPERLY filed a bit otherwise you -will- have problems with tuning. If you go to a smaller gauge, the nut will likely need to be replaced as you'll likely have issues with fretbuzz around the first or second fret. Likewise any time you change string gauge, you'll likely need to make a truss rod adjustment too to address the difference in tension on the lighter or heavier strings.

Now the first of magnatone's comments I have to address here is "Regardless wether it is used or brand new, all guitars need a setup, none are really ready to play or at least not as they should be since it is a personal preference issue..". While I don't really disagree with the sentiment for the most part, it's not completely true either. I've played many guitars off the rack (new and used) where the setups were just fine for most people. Take the setup guide here on Fender for example...yes, it is a recommended starting point. That said, it's a pretty darn good one based on many years of experience by the folks that wrote it. Yes, some people do in fact have radically different techniques and yes, some people are considerably more sensitive than others to feel...personally I'm more twitchy about neck shapes/profiles than setups. I can live with an average factory setup, but at this stage in my career, anything other than a standard C shape neck just drives me insane! A bad setup is one thing...and yes, that should be addressed. That does not however in any way suggest that "all guitars need a setup"...if it plays well then there's no real need to mess with it. Age old piece of wisdom here; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I will say that yes, intonation -is- very important. If the intonation isn't set correctly the guitar will always sound out of tune somewhere on that fretboard. That said, it's not terribly difficult to set the intonation at all...just be careful as you're screwing those saddles back as it -does- raise the pitch of the string rather abruptly.

Beyond that, yea...you should probably check your setup at every string change but honestly, if it feels decent and sounds decent, there really isn't too much need to mess with things. Again, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Check your intonation and such every time you change strings, but otherwise don't go messin' about with the neck or the bridge too much if the guitar plays well to you.

I also have to take issue with magnatone's comment about using radius gauges and such and particularly in regards to dressing the frets...which is NOT part of a regular setup for most people. Quite frankly if you're dressing the frets during EVERY setup, you're not going to have any frets left in no time flat! Unless you're actually having a problem with fret buzz that demands a good fret dressing (or something like "fret sprout" is an issue for you, which it is for a few), a bit of fret wear is pretty normal...it just means the guitar is being played! I will admit that yes, I'm a bit lazy here...I've had my '96 MIM since she was brand new in '96 and yes, I've played the crap out of her over most of those years. Yea, there's a couple of divots here and there (which I usually only notice when I'm changing strings), but honestly I have yet to dress those frets...nothing's buzzing yet so there's just no reason to. I suspect at some point fairly soon I will have to break down and level them but honestly that's just not something that needs to be done THAT often.

Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen ANYONE use radius gauges to set the bridge saddles. It's not THAT hard to just eyeball it then adjust by feel....which is even what most pro setup guys do. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he's actually contradicting himself there...if setups are, as he suggests, a "personal preference issue" (and they are), then using a radius gauge would actually be counter-productive because it does NOT take that personal preference into account...like some of us having our high E and B strings set just a bit higher on a Strat to allow for easier string bends! No offense to magnatone there but that honestly sounds like he's deliberately trying to over-complicate matters as though he's trying to scare people off this or something.

Likewise, I also have to STRONGLY disagree with his recommendation of Balmer's book...while there is -some- good info in that book, the greatest majority of it is repetitive and redundant...and it tends to say the same thing over and over and over. It's like reading a freakin' Chilton's repair manual...EVERY paragraph starts out with "disconnect the negative battery cable, make sure engine if off and the transmission is in park....", yadda, yadda, yadda. Seriously, if you took all the redundant info and pages out of that book, it would probably be reduced to only 10 or 20 pages long. SERIOUS waste of money in my opinion. While it isn't Strat specific, I'd actually recommend Ralph Denyer's "The Guitar Handbook"...contains similar info on setups as well as A LOT of other info on guitars in general. A much better investment as far as reading material goes.



Honestly, it's not THAT hard to setup a Strat...and set it up well. Yea, there's some things to be careful of and yes, it is helpful to have someone show you how...but it's not absolutely essential either. There's -a lot- of good info out there on the internet these days (including here on Fender as well as Youtube, etc) to get you started. If you're not sure of your skills there, then yea...I'd suggest starting with the cheaper instrument first and mess about with this stuff a little until you get a good feel and good understanding of it all. If you're happy with the setup on your American, then use that as a reference while working on the cheaper instrument...if you know how to use a few basic tools, you should get the hang of it pretty quick.

Again, just my own personal opinions.
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:01 am
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Hmmm....I did say "As a Rule Of Thumb " but I didn't say each time you set up your guitar you should dress the frets. ( Every Time I change the oil on the B6 I run it thru the Vag Com Diagnostics, redo all the chassis alignment and reflash the ECU ... :wink: :roll: )

Balmer's book may be a bit redundant but it is specific to Fender Strat's and their copies and is a nice read thru with plenty of visuals... Is it the best :?: I'll leave that to each person to decide...

Again ... No ... setting up your guitar isn't that difficult but there are certain small details that you don't figure out on your own the first time or even the 2nd or 3rd time.
Hence why the suggestion to have someone like someone who does this for a living walk you thru the process.....

But I'll disagree with you on a guitar is ready to play and is just fine right off of the rack...
Nope...some are close but they all can use a tweak here and there.
As far as dressing frets and that I did say " IF Needed "

The operating theme here was / is " NEWBIE " which unless I have completely misunderstood the term, refers to someone who is new to whatever subject is at hand.

Not quite sure where the reticence to ask for advice is coming from, but when attempting to do something for the first time it is always time saving to have someone experienced guiding you thru the process.
I actually think I'll go Base Flying tomorrow. I'm sure I can figure it out on my own .... :wink:

I'm really not going to argue with the consensus, however I will say that as far as setting up guitars, rebuilding them or just plain building from wood stock and various parts, I have over time sought the advice and knowledge of a couple friends who do this quite profitably ( almost to the point of becoming a pest but ) ... One of these gracious enough to advise thru the years is Otto D'ambrosio. He does have a pretty good grasp on the subject ... I think someone who builds Archtops, learned his craft in NYC under the masters, has his own namesake production model and recently just rebuilt Stephen Still's priceless D'angelico ( which looked like a gathering of kindling ) has a few things to say about what does and doesn't make a correctly set-up guitar.
One off the rack isn't ready to go....
Sort of like getting dressed the night before your wedding and sleeping on it.

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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:24 am
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53magnatone wrote:
Again ... No ... setting up your guitar isn't that difficult but there are certain small details that you don't figure out on your own the first time or even the 2nd or 3rd time.
Hence why the suggestion to have someone like someone who does this for a living walk you thru the process.....


My point was simply that while yea...it's nice to have someone walk you thru it, it's not absolutely necessary either as you seemed to insinuate. There's -a lot- of info out there these days...I WISH Youtube had of been around back in my day when I was learning this stuff! LOL!!!



Quote:
But I'll disagree with you on a guitar is ready to play and is just fine right off of the rack...
Nope...some are close but they all can use a tweak here and there.

I'm really not going to argue with the consensus, however I will say that as far as setting up guitars, rebuilding them or just plain building from wood stock and various parts, I have over time sought the advice and knowledge of a couple friends who do this quite profitably ( almost to the point of becoming a pest but ) ... One of these gracious enough to advise thru the years is Otto D'ambrosio. He does have a pretty good grasp on the subject ... I think someone who builds Archtops, learned his craft in NYC under the masters, has his own namesake production model and recently just rebuilt Stephen Still's priceless D'angelico ( which looked like a gathering of kindling ) has a few things to say about what does and doesn't make a correctly set-up guitar.
One off the rack isn't ready to go....


My comment here is simply that everyone has different tastes and different levels of sensitivity. If the setups on the majority of new and even used guitars was really THAT bad, I doubt places like Guitar Center and Sam Ash would sell as many as they do (and we all know they don't do diddle to most of the guitars that come in the door). Seriously...do you really think most of those weekend wankers sitting on the sales floor of a GC really know the difference between a good setup and a mediocre one?

Yea...sure...I'll be the first to admit that anytime I buy a guitar personally, new or used, I've usually had to tweak out the setup from the gig go. If nothing else, I play .010's so I'm usually changing the strings (and setup) right away because I just burn thru .009's in nothing flat. That said though, I've also been playing for over 30 years now, I -know- what I like and I know how to get it there. And that's really a key point...how do you setup a guitar to an individual's personal taste if that person doesn't really understand what those tastes actually are yet? Isn't that exactly one of the reasons why there's a factory default setup to begin with? So the instrument is reasonably playable to the average musician who walks thru the door? With that in mind, as you've essentially said, everyone's different. Certainly a more experienced player understands the difference...but everyone isn't that experienced yet. Unless the guitar really got knocked out of whack during shipping or something, for most folks the setups that come from the Fender factory really aren't too bad at all.

More specifically, in the case of a newbie and/or someone who seems happy with how the guitar plays to begin with...sorry dude but we're NOT talking Steven Stills here. Even a person who's been playing for a few years may or may not notice the subtle nuances of a finely detailed setup. For many (if not most) it's usually more the matter of high action vs. low action and does it stay in tune...everything else gets a bit subjective for a lot of folk. The point is that not everyone needs the level of detail and perfection regarding setups as someone like Stills (or Clapton or any other famous legendary musician). If fact, many don't even know the difference.





Quote:
I actually think I'll go Base Flying tomorrow. I'm sure I can figure it out on my own .... :wink:




What's stopping you? Actually looks like fun...at least it would if I were about 25 years younger! LOL!!!

That said, I would simply add that the comparison of setting up one's own guitar and risking one's life by quite literally jumping off a building or cliff...really just isn't the same thing. Maybe you have to be a little nuts in either case, but we're not quite comparing apples to oranges there at all....




L8r,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:38 am
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lomitus wrote:
My point was simply that while yea...it's nice to have someone walk you thru it, it's not absolutely necessary either as you seemed to insinuate.

You are absolutely correct. It's not neccessary at all. It's a free country. If people want to risk damaging their own guitars that's their business and who is 53magnatone to interfere? I concur wholeheartedly. He should stop casting pearls before swine.

Shame on you, 53. Shame!


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Post subject: Re: Setup -newbie
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:42 pm
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Newbie and where to start on the intonation question.... :wink:

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:shock: :?: :idea: :?: :?: :? :arrow:

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