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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:31 am
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mhowell wrote:
It's definitely a bolt on. Check out the builders description of the system.

Gosh, well it's very odd, then. You have to dismantle the bridge before taking the neck off. I'm not clear what the benefit of a bolt-on neck is on this sort of model - it's not like you're going to be swapping it out. But it certainly looks excellent, precision work.

I think it's a pretty guitar all together. 8)

By the way, since you're interested in these things do you know Taylor's neck join system, which was mentioned earlier by 93greenstrat? Worth checking out.


mhowell wrote:
I couldn't buy the company for any more than the price of his tools and remaining materials. In a custom shop I don't see how his past sales and earnings would be a relevant consideration toward valuation.

Exactly. A custom guitar company without its custom builder is just... some machinary. Very sad, but that's the truth of the matter.

(I still think Nutter should buy it though - scissors!)

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:56 am
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Well my main comments would be on the neck really. I do find that neck joint very interesting...just logged a personal memo on it in the back of my brain. I also like the non-traditional spacing of the dot markers as well...set's it apart from a traditional Strat without screaming about it. On the other hand, I don't really care for the 24 fret necks personally. Most of my Strats are 21 frets with one 22 fretter "just in case"...I seldom use it though. I suspect there's probably a few shredders out there who would get off on the 24 frets but for the most part there's a reason why some folks, like 93green up there, refer to this as the "dusty end of the neck". Also, and this is mostly an aesthetic opinion but, I really don't care for the red tortoise shell pickguard either...but that's mainly a taste thing. Being non-traditional however creates more of a problem since as it IS a taste thing, makes it that much harder to change. One of the truly beautiful things about real Strats is their modular design with most parts being fairly interchangable...one of the reasons there's so many great partscasters out there.

So with that said, personally I might find it interesting to play one of these, but I seriously doubt I would actually buy one. Something like this -might- appeal to Ibanez and Jackson fans but from a marketing standpoint, I don't think it would have a great deal of appeal to the majority of Strat fans out there. I could be wrong but seems more of a novelty item than anything else really.

Just my own personal opinions,
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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:24 am
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I'd have to say no. I prefer bolt-on necks and standard strat-style construction for all my guitars. I do a lot of upgrading and customising and when parts don't exactly match the standard dimensions that just becomes impossible.

Having said that, the guitar in the pics is a really nice design!

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:53 am
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Interesting that most of the replies are on more or less the same viewpoint.
Beautiful guitars but not as functionally appealing as Fender's designs.
Which speaks volumes about how simple Leo's designs were while at the same time the engineer's designs were right on the mark, needing just a few refinements over the last 60 years.....

I can understand coming from an artistic viewpoint that the " Form Follows Function " premise may be lost in an overly ornate creation.....( that was a mouthful :lol: )

Fender has addressed this issue with their set necks, but with a more affordable goal aimed at their overall market as in the contoured neck heel.
Not as pleasing to look at or to feel/play as a set neck, but a large improvement on the chunky square bolt on neck.

For my own purposes i don't see a reason as to why a smooth neck heel wouldn't be feasible in the traditional bolt on neck system that our Stratocasters and Telecasters feature.
It's probably something I will work on for my own guitar builds. Some idea's have begun to germinate but I will leave those to be revealed in my build threads.
Each and every new build I embark on seems to warrant a bit of a different approach......
As of today's count this is 5 builds...

Of course I would be interested in seeing the interior of this Custom Guitar Shop but it doesn't seem as that is an open door.... Too bad...

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:44 pm
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Ceri wrote:
mhowell wrote:
It's definitely a bolt on. Check out the builders description of the system.

Gosh, well it's very odd, then. You have to dismantle the bridge before taking the neck off. I'm not clear what the benefit of a bolt-on neck is on this sort of model - it's not like you're going to be swapping it out. But it certainly looks excellent, precision work.

I think it's a pretty guitar all together. 8)

By the way, since you're interested in these things do you know Taylor's neck join system, which was mentioned earlier by 93greenstrat? Worth checking out.


mhowell wrote:
I couldn't buy the company for any more than the price of his tools and remaining materials. In a custom shop I don't see how his past sales and earnings would be a relevant consideration toward valuation.

Exactly. A custom guitar company without its custom builder is just... some machinary. Very sad, but that's the truth of the matter.

(I still think Nutter should buy it though - scissors!)

Cheers - C


Why would you have to dismantle the bridge? Are you referring to the way the springs are connected to the end of the neck? That would be a pain.

As to why use a bolt on - According to the builder: "There has been a long-standing assumption that a neck-through design provides superior sustain, with set-neck and bolt-on following behind in that order. But recent research by noted luthier R.M. Mottola, published in the Fall 2007 issue of American Lutherie, indicates that the reverse is actually true: the bolt-on design produces better sustain and better harmonics than either neck-through or set-neck designs." and that is his main motivation.

Here's some more detail on his neck construction.

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Last edited by mhowell on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:48 pm
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53magnatone wrote:
Interesting that most of the replies are on more or less the same viewpoint.
Beautiful guitars but not as functionally appealing as Fender's designs.
Which speaks volumes about how simple Leo's designs were while at the same time the engineer's designs were right on the mark, needing just a few refinements over the last 60 years.....

I can understand coming from an artistic viewpoint that the " Form Follows Function " premise may be lost in an overly ornate creation.....( that was a mouthful :lol: )

Fender has addressed this issue with their set necks, but with a more affordable goal aimed at their overall market as in the contoured neck heel.
Not as pleasing to look at or to feel/play as a set neck, but a large improvement on the chunky square bolt on neck.

For my own purposes i don't see a reason as to why a smooth neck heel wouldn't be feasible in the traditional bolt on neck system that our Stratocasters and Telecasters feature.
It's probably something I will work on for my own guitar builds. Some idea's have begun to germinate but I will leave those to be revealed in my build threads.
Each and every new build I embark on seems to warrant a bit of a different approach......
As of today's count this is 5 builds...

Of course I would be interested in seeing the interior of this Custom Guitar Shop but it doesn't seem as that is an open door.... Too bad...


If I were to build something like the Black Mesa design I would go to 22 frets. I would also try to make it look as much like a strat as possible and make as many part as possible interchangeable with a strat. I would want to be able to take a loaded pickguard off of a Strat and install it directly into my build.

Obviously the neck and body would be completely incompatible with Fender but everything else should bolt fit with minimal effort.

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:42 am
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mhowell wrote:
Why would you have to dismantle the bridge? Are you referring to the way the springs are connected to the end of the neck? That would be a pain.

Exactly. And since you'd have the strings slackened right off or removed entirely the bridge would then drop out, so you might as well remove it first. A bit of a pain.

But then I can't quite see why you'd be removing the neck anyhow so I'm not quite sure what the point of a bolt-on is on a custom guitar like this. Though as you say...:
mhowell wrote:
As to why use a bolt on - According to the builder: "There has been a long-standing assumption that a neck-through design provides superior sustain, with set-neck and bolt-on following behind in that order. But recent research by noted luthier R.M. Mottola, published in the Fall 2007 issue of American Lutherie, indicates that the reverse is actually true: the bolt-on design produces better sustain and better harmonics than either neck-through or set-neck designs." and that is his main motivation.

Mmmmmmmmm. Yeah well: Gibson did a bunch of research that supposedly proved the exact opposite - though they've never published it, so we can't judge.

The one thing we know for sure about the sustain and bolt-on versus set-neck debate is that if we get into it here this thread will immediately disappear into 20 pages of guys shouting at each other about what they think they do or don't hear from their guitars, and at the end nobody will really be any the wiser.

We've been all the way round that block enough times before. Yikes! I'm outta here! :lol:

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:41 pm
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mhowell wrote:
The photos are not mine and I did not build these guitas. I linked these photos from a company called "Black Mesa". It is a full custom guitar builder that is going out of business and is selling his company. I am not going to buy the company as I have very little skill in custom building guitars and my day job pays to well. :mrgreen:

However, the innovative body/neck joint employed by Black Mesa is one of the best solutions that I've seen for a strat style guitar. The fact that it can be done while maintaining the look of a traditional Strat is icing on the cake for me.

It is also unique in that the neck bolts under the body. Usually it's the opposite with the neck on top of the body. This connection along with the strategic placement of the single bolt might cause the string tension to pull the neck/body contact tighter which should increase sustain - that's an educated guess which could be wrong.

I suggested to the owner that there might be a market for his neck joint and might consider selling bodies and necks or kits. He wasn't interested.

"...increase sustain..." :lol:
That only a bat or dog could hear.


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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:31 pm
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Ceri wrote:
mhowell wrote:
Why would you have to dismantle the bridge? Are you referring to the way the springs are connected to the end of the neck? That would be a pain.

Exactly. And since you'd have the strings slackened right off or removed entirely the bridge would then drop out, so you might as well remove it first. A bit of a pain.

But then I can't quite see why you'd be removing the neck anyhow so I'm not quite sure what the point of a bolt-on is on a custom guitar like this. Though as you say...:
mhowell wrote:
As to why use a bolt on - According to the builder: "There has been a long-standing assumption that a neck-through design provides superior sustain, with set-neck and bolt-on following behind in that order. But recent research by noted luthier R.M. Mottola, published in the Fall 2007 issue of American Lutherie, indicates that the reverse is actually true: the bolt-on design produces better sustain and better harmonics than either neck-through or set-neck designs." and that is his main motivation.

Mmmmmmmmm. Yeah well: Gibson did a bunch of research that supposedly proved the exact opposite - though they've never published it, so we can't judge.

The one thing we know for sure about the sustain and bolt-on versus set-neck debate is that if we get into it here this thread will immediately disappear into 20 pages of guys shouting at each other about what they think they do or don't hear from their guitars, and at the end nobody will really be any the wiser.

We've been all the way round that block enough times before. Yikes! I'm outta here! :lol:

Cheers - C

Always good to get you feedback Ceri. I'm not religious about bolt on, glued, or neck thru. The destination for me is a connection that facilitates easier and comfortable access on the upper registers. How we reach that destination is not as relevant.

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:59 am
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Stainless Steel screws for bolt on improve sustain by 99.9% and never stain your fingers ... :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:12 am
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mhowell wrote:
I'm not religious about bolt on, glued, or neck thru. The destination for me is a connection that facilitates easier and comfortable access on the upper registers. How we reach that destination is not as relevant.

Absolutely - there's much better things to be religious about! :D

Far as dusty end access is concerned, I'd suggest the carve of the heel and the shaping of the body's cutouts is what counts. You do tend to get the streamlined heels on set necks rather than bolt-ons, but this guitar is of course the exception.

Till 53magnatone comes along with his solution to that issue, that is! Now I'm hoping a carved heel on a bolt-on is going to be a feature of his latest build project - I'm cooking up some more popcorn as I type! 8)

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:26 am
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Ha..Ha... Good Morning Ceri... ( from my side of the pond the sun has just risen and blinding my desktop ).

I just did some sketches yesterday on that thought, but ended up spending an inordinate amount of time on Ron Kirn's website...All I can say is :shock: 8)

I agree with previous opinions that once you stray from the standardized sizes of Strat and Tele parts then it's a cut to fit and adapt to fit nightmare....
Although an attempt to smooth out the heel with the existing locations of bolts on a Strat is a problem. The contoured heel is nice but there has to be a way to remove that curb stop for a less jarring speed bump ..... :lol: :lol: :idea: :arrow:

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:09 am
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I do like the looks of it though. I think it would be cool to have a neck like that designed to fit standard Strats, I really like that laminated look!


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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:03 pm
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Getting back to my original question. Basically what I'm curious about is who wants a guitar that looks identical to a strat or tele but has a much more comfortable neck joint? I suggest that the body/neck components be made so all other components would be completely compatible with strat parts (the body and neck be the obvious exceptions).

Don't focus so much on the particular instrument I posted. That picture is just to get the idea across visually. It's a 24 fret guitar and, as nice as it is, it is not exactly what I have in mind. The pickguard wouldn't fit a strat. It also has a tilted headstock which some might prefer but I'm trying to stay as close to the original as possible.

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Post subject: Re: Question for builders and DIYers
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:34 pm
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^^ Then you are going to be thinking about the body to neck joint.... There is no way to " Have Your Cake And Eat It Too " in this....
A smooth neck like a set neck demands a completely different approach in fastening the neck to the body, but if it has to be compatible with a standard Strat body, then that is not going to work.
The mechanics of where the neck and body are fastened becomes the problem... if it is a 4 screw/bolt system, then you must have a certain thickness for the neck heel and for the pocket or the guitar will be like a Rickenbacker or an SG and you will have intonation issues from the neck flopping around like yesterday's catch.... :wink:

Seriously this isn't an easy solution due to being restricted with / to the standardized Fender neck body bolt system.. You have to rethink the entire system, I don't have an answer yet but there are quite a few potential fastening systems that could work. I would will think and work on this but a lot of people have thought over this one and there are pros and cons to all the solutions...

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