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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:18 pm
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Well personally I wouldn't pay $1000 for -any- of them. That said, if the price were $500...sorry guys but I'd still take the Mexican. Again I don't really care for the 2 point bridge on the Americans and as far as pups go, at least I've found a couple of Mexi's that sound decent from the git-go...the American's don't. That said, it's also a loaded question as each of these guitars has different features so country of origin is NOT the only consideration there.


Here's the problem with this age old debate - a person who is convinced that the American's are somehow superior is always going to "believe" they are, regardless of ANY degree of reason or logic. To really put this on a LEVEL playing field, the question should be that if you had 4 identically setup instruments having the same exact features, with the country of origin being the only significant difference, which would you pick? And here's the rub...someone such as Donny (and a few nameless others there) will ALWAYS pick the American made Strat because in their mind, that instrument is somehow always going to be superior. It doesn't matter that each instrument is made on virtually identical equipment these days and it doesn't matter that each instrument is crafted by Fender trained personnel...with that kind of mentality, such a person will always choose the American made model. What's more is that such a person will ALWAYS try to find a way to rationalize it too! They'll swear up and down until their face turns blue that the American is a better guitar...every time.

Again we're talking mass produced products here and I'm sorry...you just can't tell me that the guy that stands there and loads those bodies into the CNC routing machine in Mexico is any less of a "craftsman" than the guy doing the exact same job up there in California...I just don't buy it (and neither should anyone else reading this thread). If those 4 guitars where all setup the same way all having the same features, with the country of origin being the only difference, I can promise you that 99.5% of the folks here simply would NOT be able to tell the difference.



What this is really all about is perception and preconception...plain and simple. I'm not being rude (just my usual blunt self) but the simple truth here is that MANY people already have their minds made up about this. What this leads to is that when they go looking at an American Strat, they are looking for what they feel are the good qualities of the instrument...and because they believe that the American instruments are better, tend to more easily over-look the flaws. Likewise when they have it into their heads that the other instruments are somehow inferior, particularly based on origin, they immediately go looking for all those flaws. In other words, if you have guitars "A" and "B" and you believe that "A" is somehow superior, you're simply never going to be as happy with "B" as you are with "A". It's not a reflection of the instruments, it's just the way the human mind works.


As someone else once said, once that blind fold goes on, even most professional musicians can't really tell the difference between a Stradivarius and a top shelf Yamaha...and the exact same thing is true with guitars.



These are, as always, just my own personal opinions.
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:09 pm
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Robinstrat wrote:
Just let me push Donny´s idea a bit further, please.

There are 4 Fender guitars.
1. American Stratocaster
2. Mexican Stratocaster
3. Korean Stratocaster
4. Chinese Stratocaster

Which one would you buy if you had the money and ALL of them have the same price tag of $1000 ?
Ask yourself why you would get the American instead of the other ones. I guess there are different answers but I bet most of us would get the American.

All the best,
Robin


Many people would choose the US - IF it were free - simply because it's the most expensive and too many of us simply have to have the highest price item. We still equate cost with quality much of the time.

And that is crap. There is many a premium mass marketed product out there that is style, image, and created market perception, over real value. I give you a few examples. Bose audio, Beats by Dre, Louis Vuitton, Fashion label sunglasses. In the case of the latter you pay large sums of money for garish oversized crap, that often isn't any good for your eyes at all.

Why do people buy this stuff? Because too many believe $ = quality and labels rule. Perception is created my marketing, because we can rationalise and justify any cost if we want something badly enough. Why do you think corporations pay so much to image merchants, advertisers and lawyers? to build and protect "The Brand". Because that's where the perception and biases are held. That's what keeps people loyal to the Brand, even when the products change and evolve. Even if some companies get into a completely different business. Many will follow the Brand.

Beats headphones are one of the biggest selling in their market after only a few years, and easily the worst value for money. It's pretty easy (and cheap) to make bassy headphones. Their product is worth $150, yet sells for $4-500. Some kids know they're poor value, but buy them anyway because they're street bling, and they can't a buy a brand that mates will dis.

Some guys buy guitars on the same principles. I'd choose the one I thought felt and sounded best, because I don't care what labels say.


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:06 pm
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Smokin' Frets wrote:
jackdragbean wrote:

Donny, you missed his point. He was saying they aren't alone in the "best production lines." He gave examples such as Ibanez, PRS, Carvin, etc. Looking at Hard Rock Cafes and who the plays what etc., That's more of a "what's popular" and not the best production guitars.


Thank you, Jack! :)



No worries!


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:32 pm
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donnycraven wrote:
Do you guys even have bands or is this all you got?
Am I locked into a battle with a bunch of losers that dont like Fenders so much and dont have bands?


I would have let it all go until I saw this post. So now to be credible on this forum, you need to be in a band? Really?

Brother, I'm not in a band. I guess I should stop posting. Wait, I play with and know tons of guys that are in bands and their only income is just that. Does that count? I also do the majority of my own set ups, electronics, etc. Is that enough? One of my good friends and mentors is one of the best luthiers I have ever met. Does that count?

Being a luthier and in a band will give you some credibility but it doesn't make you the know all end all person on the forum. It just says that you may know things that some people don't and you're a good resource of information for the forum. Just remember that there are many people here that have less and more experience than you with different opinions. You can't force your opinions on others. It's best to just say your opinion and then just end it or begin it with "This is my opinion."

Saying all of that, I still think you have tons of great info for people and even some great opinions and seem to be a pretty good guy. You just comes off as "my way or the highway and holier than thou" sometimes which pisses a lot of people off.

By the way, most all folks on this forum love Fender. I sure do! I also buy other brands too and think there are some really great guitars out there without the Fender brand too. Custom shop and production line.


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:23 pm
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Personally Im thankfull for the Mexican plant and the Mexican worker.
You see the American plant barely breaks even not a huge profit maker but the Mexican plant?
They have little more than $100 bucks in that strat they sell you.

Ok Im gonna clue anyone in that wants to know the real deal about Mexican strats.

I happen to know someone that was the purchasing agent for Musicians Friends Kansas City and got to tour all the Fender plants, knew the inside scoops and now owns and runs a independent Guitar Shop now here in Kansas City where I deal.

Ok heres some inside scoops

A Mexican and American strat only share these actual items

Machine Heads
Jack plate
Plastics (pickguard knobs etc)
Neck Plates (Specials and Vintage RI)
Pots and switch

Thats it they share no other parts

A guitar is based on its wood and its production worker so lets look at these.
When a shipment of wood comes in its graded and any graded not fit for the USA line goes to Mexico.
The production workers in USA get USA wages and Benifits and they are lazy like all us Americans lol
The Mexicans work for low wage and are desperate to keep a job they work hard.
The Mexican worker recieves Americas worn out CNC that is loose and sloopy and he has to figure out how to make it even work because it electric eye wont track half the time.
So he starts with inferior wood and worn out machinary.
But its not over yet :)
Then he gets fret wire made in China its not the quality Industry standard USA fret wire thats on American guitars you will notice it wears much faster.
Ever buy a fret job?
A Mexican strat might as well be thrown away and thats what they really are is throw aways. You need anything major such as a fret job just buy another Mexican Strat cheaper and easier.
Ok now the Mexican 6 screw bridge.
No its not the $100 Vintage reissue that you think.
Its the $39.99 made in China licensed Fender.
Pickups, the heart of the guitar again the Mexican worker gets Fenders old worn out pickup winders and not even the same materials but cheap imports magnets rods and wire.
Now lets look at the finish its not the Nitro Cellular or even the Urethane, those take work.
Its a cheap epoxy resin thats like glass and once it chips theres no repair, but it finishes easy and nice.

Now the price... its nice huh? Fender makes a profit there alot of profit.
Know why? because there is a lot of kids that want to play guitar and mom and dad will shell out $500. There is alot of hobby guitarist that play at home or in a garage band, Heck nowadays everyone is a guitarist and has a band in thier garage.
Know what Fender does with that profit? They sure dont buy new machines for Mexico those people only get new machines when USA upgrades. They pump it right back into American guitars. :)
So there you have it.
I LOVE Mexican guitars and please buy alot of them because that low cost low overhead import product certainly keeps my beloved Fender alive and well
Good Night ;)

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Last edited by donnycraven on Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:32 pm
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jackdragbean wrote:
Wait! I didn't do any comparisons!!

racoons - how can you trust an animal that washes it's hands?
rabbits - everything eats them and bucked teeth went out years ago.
Beaver - Messes up every dam thing. also see rabbit
Bears - anything that will use a rabbit to wipe its butt with isn't all bad but you can't trust them. Ask Mr. Ranger.
Squirrels - plays with nuts all day. ****Winner****


I almost missed this
But once I noticed it I still didnt care brotha.

Know why?
Cuz I hope you buy another Mexican strat and support my USA company.
:lol:

Whats the matter?
Did you stop having fun?
You seemed to be earlier...

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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:11 pm
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donnycraven wrote:
jackdragbean wrote:
Wait! I didn't do any comparisons!!

racoons - how can you trust an animal that washes it's hands?
rabbits - everything eats them and bucked teeth went out years ago.
Beaver - Messes up every dam thing. also see rabbit
Bears - anything that will use a rabbit to wipe its butt with isn't all bad but you can't trust them. Ask Mr. Ranger.
Squirrels - plays with nuts all day. ****Winner****


I almost missed this
But once I noticed it I still didnt care brotha.

Know why?
Cuz I hope you buy another Mexican strat and support my USA company.
:lol:

Whats the matter?
Did you stop having fun?
You seemed to be earlier...


Still having fun! I don't own a Mexican Fender. Not sure where you got that from. Again, every time you post, you let your ego get in the way which in turn negates anything that you typed that made any sense in the first place. What you should have done when you saw that post was laugh and been done with it.


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:11 am
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Robinstrat wrote:
There are 4 Fender guitars.
1. American Stratocaster
2. Mexican Stratocaster
3. Korean Stratocaster
4. Chinese Stratocaster

Which one would you buy if you had the money and ALL of them have the same price tag of $1000 ?
Ask yourself why you would get the American instead of the other ones. I guess there are different answers but I bet most of us would get the American.


I will say that for $1000, I'd be buying the Mexican with no hesitation if it's built to the standard a $1000 Mexi Strat would be. For that matter, I'd be looking at the Korean and Chinese as well if they were built to the standard that amount of cash would get you from those countries! Also, if you want a proper vintage style Strat, you're not getting one even remotely close from the US factory for $1000, that's for sure. :lol:

I've been very impressed with the standard of Mexican Fenders over the past couple of years, they've gone from being 'okay' to being (in my view) some of the best guitars Fender makes from any source - the Baja Tele in particular ranks as one of the best Teles I have ever played - and I've played a lot of Teles. Absolutely delicious neck coupled with Custom Shop Twisted Tele & Broadcaster pickups for £600 brand new in the UK? Yes please.

I won't bash Fender US - I play their instruments daily, and I love them to bits. They've made some exceptionally nice instruments. The first thing I did when the first band I was in got a small advance from the label was to go out and buy my first brand new US Strat, it was like living the rock and roll dream! :lol:

These days though, I don't really care where an instrument comes from as long as it's good. And some of the 'import' Fenders (I'm not in the US, so they're all imports to me! ) are very, very good indeed.

I'm off to do some sessionwork later - I'll be taking my 1992 Strat Plus, and my old mongrelcaster made up of a 1990 Squier Korean neck, an unidentified body made of something which may or may not have once been a tree somewhere in the far east & a mix of Duncan & Fender CS pickups. And you know what? I love 'em both equally. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:28 am
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Quote:
I'm off to do some sessionwork later - I'll be taking my 1992 Strat Plus, and my old mongrelcaster made up of a 1990 Squier Korean neck, an unidentified body made of something which may or may not have once been a tree somewhere in the far east & a mix of Duncan & Fender CS pickups. And you know what? I love 'em both equally. :mrgreen:


Know exactly what you mean. I have a mongrelcaster with a 89 E-series Korean neck, maybe matching body, Fender bridge, Seymour Duncans single coils in the neck and middle, and a Seymour Duncun Screamin Demon in the bridge, one tone, one voulume, and one hole :lol: . That guitar plays and sounds great.!


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:39 am
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jackdragbean wrote:
one tone, one voulume, and one hole :lol: . That guitar plays and sounds great.!


My Mongrelcaster uses the upgraded form of that scheme - one volume, one tone, and one pot not connected to anything at all. :lol:

It's actually the 'Strattiest' Strat I own, soundwise. Very odd. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:27 am
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jackdragbean wrote:
donnycraven wrote:
jackdragbean wrote:
Wait! I didn't do any comparisons!!

racoons - how can you trust an animal that washes it's hands?
rabbits - everything eats them and bucked teeth went out years ago.
Beaver - Messes up every dam thing. also see rabbit
Bears - anything that will use a rabbit to wipe its butt with isn't all bad but you can't trust them. Ask Mr. Ranger.
Squirrels - plays with nuts all day. ****Winner****


I almost missed this
But once I noticed it I still didnt care brotha.

Know why?
Cuz I hope you buy another Mexican strat and support my USA company.
:lol:

Whats the matter?
Did you stop having fun?
You seemed to be earlier...


Still having fun! I don't own a Mexican Fender. Not sure where you got that from. Again, every time you post, you let your ego get in the way which in turn negates anything that you typed that made any sense in the first place. What you should have done when you saw that post was laugh and been done with it.



I AM laughing brotha :lol: alot :wink: and thankful for our closer relationship too.

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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:18 am
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I was 13 when I saw a Stratocaster advertising in a magazine and I thought one day I too would a Strat.
I am available for the 50 years my last year and although it is Mex, vulgar compared to three copies I have, including a strat Maya 1978, this is a great guitar. Only the American Vintage I liked but the price is high, the classic 50s Mim is much less ..
So maybe for my 60th birthday, I would offer an American Vintage, but my classic gives me a lot of happiness and I do not care where it comes from I realize my dream

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Sorry for my english, not good, i am of the country of Molière, Hugo, Zola ...


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:53 pm
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That is a beautiful story keep the dream alive :)

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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:53 pm
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After you listen to what others say, do what's best for you. I have over 20 Fenders: MIA, MIM, Japan, Korea, China, and a Squier made in Indonesia. I'm proud of all of them and they're all worthy of my love and attention.


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Post subject: Re: Importance of Origin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:55 pm
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Quote:
It's actually the 'Strattiest' Strat I own, soundwise. Very odd. :mrgreen:


I know what you mean. I stopped asking why a long time ago and just go with it. Great guitar!


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