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Post subject: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:09 pm
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Hey Guys,
So I was sitting here this evening about ready to put one of these little Squier partscasters back together (actually all it needs is strings) when something in the back of my head went "art project". Ok...give or take all the debates over the Squier name, this really is a pretty decent little guitar for what it is...good body (real wood at least), pretty nice neck, got some MIM pups in her and so on...plays nice, sounds nice, etc.. Not really worth a lot of money obviously (frighteningly enough, she'd be worth more as an art project than a guitar) as much as another little something for me to doink around with.

Now as I was sitting here trying to decide what kind of art project, I decided I want to do a full body job on this one and not just a pickguard like I did with my Lil' Dragon Squier Tele (just a laser engraved acrylic pickguard and some upgrades at this point)...and I got to thinking about some of the Jackson's and even a few Dean's I've seen in recent years. Here's a couple of links to illustrate (no pun intended) what I'm talking about...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/ ... ric-guitar

http://www.jacksonguitarsonsale.com/Jac ... _1411.html


I -know- these aren't air brushed...being mass produced, such as the Dinky's are at least (I've seen quite a few with that skull motif), there's just no way they could get that many of them -that- consistent. It's gotta be some kind of graphic applied over the body (or the surface at least).

So the short question: How the devil do they do that?

Being a digital artist, I do a great deal of work in Photoshop and Illustrator both and I have access to a couple of high end inkjets (my own 17" Epson here at home as well as a 24" Epson and a 44" HP at the college), so coming up with my own design and printing it isn't really a big deal...beyond weeding thru the plethora of ideas running around in my head at the moment...I could probably even use some of my photography work (like a sunset shot or something). But what kind of "material" would I want to use to print it on...that I could run thru an inkjet without it smearing...and what would I use as a clear coat afterwards that wouldn't melt or damage the ink or material?

Thoughts?

As always, thanks!
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:16 am
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lomitus wrote:
So the short question: How the devil do they do that?


Well, I'm not really sure but I'd say they're done just the same way the pink paisley and blue flower strats were done (or the Ibanez JEM 77 BFP or JEM 77 FP):
They use a thin layer of printed paper/wallpaper/cloth.

Use 2K clearcoat or water based acrylic clear coat.

While wallpaper and cloth are of the least problem, paper is something else!
Try to find a paper which doesn't soak in too much of the clear coat (testing required).

I'm very sceptic that "normal" ink jet ink would be useful, it tends to smear very much when getting moist. Test it with an extra printout first.

Best way of doing it would be airbrush of course!

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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:15 am
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Telling a person who is a digital artist that air brush is the "best way"...umm...no. Sorry I know it wasn't intended as such, but that's rather insulting. The best way for any artist is generally to work within their chosen medium. Telling a digital photographer for example that doing his/her work on film in a darkroom is "best"...sorry...not trying to be rude, but nope. Don't get me wrong...I admire the work of someone like "Boris" and for that matter I'm really impressed by some more traditional brush artists that do work akin to Ralph Goings (as an artist and an art lover, Goings just blows me away!). Even folks like Salvidor Dali...wow! And yes, I'm a HUGE Leonardo Da Vinci fan. That's just not the way -I- work as an artist...nor do I have any desire too. Even -if- I had some desire to do it that way, it's not like I'm going to spend years developing the technique necessary for this one specific little project. Sorry, but even if I had more experience with an airbrush and even if I had some desire to do it that way, there's just no way for me to match the level of detail and image quality that I can with digital...whether I use one of my photos or my own art work.

I'm not terribly worried about the inkjet aspect of it...we're not talking about a $50 Lexmark "all in one" here...the HP up at the college for example can even print on canvas (granted HP canvas, LOL). Even my paltry 17" Epson here at home can handle a pretty wide variety of papers, transparencies, etc.. Unless they're doing something like screen printing or something (which again seems unlikely based on the work itself that I've seen), once I find out how companies such as Jackson and Washburn do the examples I provided, material-wise, I should be able to find a similar suitable material to run thru an inkjet...or even order it thru the school. Shouldn't really be a problem there at least.

In any case, again I was really looking to see if anyone knew how the big boys do it. I have no doubt that I could guess my way thru it with perfectly acceptable results (with some trial and error on practice pieces of course), but I kind of wanted to have a clearer idea of where I'm going first before I start spending a lot of money experimenting and such.

Peace,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:23 am
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lomitus wrote:
Telling a person who is a digital artist that air brush is the "best way"...umm...no.


Man, you're really not just difficult, you're actually getting on my nerves! :evil:
I meant it from a pure finishing work point of view!

I gave you advice regarding clearcoat, jet ink and paper. Now do what you want!

If you want to feel insulted, fine!
I didn't even read the rest of your previous post and won't read anything further that reads lomitus. You have a severe personality problem.
I'm done with you. You're ignored!

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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:29 am
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John Matos

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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:52 am
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Quote:
Man, you're really not just difficult, you're actually getting on my nerves!


I've said this in the past...if I were being deliberately rude with you (or anyone here), you would -KNOW-...there would be no question of it what so ever. It's a shame you can't take a blunt, honest response to your own posts, particularly when a few of them at least are a bit obtuse. I asked "how do they do that" and your reply started with "I'm not really sure" then you went on blathering...how can you not expect a response to that? Every single point I made was perfectly valid...and now you go on again trying to prove that you're just somehow better than I am...all because I chose to disagree with you and stated the specific reasons why. I wouldn't bow down before your apparently superior expertise in the subject (even though you essentially said "I don't know") and now you're p-ssed...

Wow...just wow.



Quote:
I'm done with you. You're ignored!


Probably for the best since you can't seem to take any criticism -at all- to your own comments and opinions and can't seem to tell the difference between someone being frank with you and just being a putz. Your opinion seems to be the ONLY thing that matters to you, which is all fine and dandy except that you get hostile if someone chooses to disagree. You just can't handle an honest debate or tossing ideas around without getting a bug up your butt when someone disagrees with you...I don't seem to be the one with the "personality problem" here. Once again the -only- thing that you've proven is that...well gee...you're just no darned better than I am.


(And people wonder why I stayed away from these forums for sooooooo long? It's all coming back to me now...)


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Quote:
John Matos


Yes...I was actually just watching that Crossroads concert last week. Very possibly what planted the idea in my head in the first place. I was actually considering something like that...or even some kind of "Frankenstrat" design, but I really want to give the graphics a try on this one....something with my own design (or photography) that hasn't really been done before (in some cases done to death).

That said, on that Strat that Clapton's playing in the vid...any idea if that's a clear pickguard over a painted body or is the pickguard painted to match? It's kind of hard to tell in the pics and video but on the top edge of the pickguard it looks like a clear/acrylic or something but on the bottom edge, it looks like the switch is mounted like on a normal pickguard...maybe a bit of both?

The reason I ask is that if I decide to go with one of my photos, this particular guitar body is routed H-S-H and that would certainly show thru a clear pickguard if I apply the image to just the body. On the other hand, applying the image to both the body and the pickguard and having things line up would seem to have it's own complications...just kind of trying to work it out in my head. Obviously the examples I provided don't really have pickguards...the pickups and such are all flush mount on those guitars, so I'm trying to figure out how to work that aspect of this.

Peace,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:45 am
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OK, this I know about. How the big boys do it is by a silk screen process. For reference, these fellas are probably the best in the business at this technique. Steve Vai, amongst many others, has his custom art work done here:

http://www.simscustom.com/

(Not to be confused with the fine American airbrush guitar finisher, Patrick Sims, at http://www.simscustomshop.com . The same surname in a similar business either side of the Atlantic is a sheer coincidence, so they both say. )

If you're not equiped for silk screen it's not going to happen. However, there is a poor man's solution. What you do is use your ordinary computer printer to print your image onto Lazertran inkjet waterslide decal paper - Google for details. Then you transfer that to the front of your guitar exactly the same as those of us who made plastic kits as kids remember doing with their waterslide transfers.

Once you've done that you simply clearcoat over the top with polyurethane, polyester or acrylic from an aerosol. Curiously, waterslide decals don't like nitrocellulose over the top of them, which is a problem Fender encountered back in the '50s and is why their headstock logos were on top of the finish back in those days.

And, bingo, you're done!

If you use archival grade printer ink then your artwork will last better - but I'm sure you know about that side of it, Jim.

So happens, I was looking through a nice book about Thomas Moran this very morning. I think you should smother this across the front of a Strat, pickguard, pickup covers and all. That would be pretty iconic:

Image

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:19 am
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Grover Jackson officially started the custom graphics trend in the early '80s.


Last edited by chromeface on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:20 am
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Nothing wrong with Project Guitars!

Ugly yellow, orange peel Home Depot spray paint
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Misshaped headstock...

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to one of my favorite guitars now:

Image

Image

Used set of Seymour Duncan APSII's, CTS Pots, POI Caps, Switch Craft input jack and switch. Mint pickguard, Schaller Vintage Style tuners, and Allparts MIM Bridge...

By far, its not perfect... Not all of us can create guitars like Ceri, but it was my first job a stripping and refinishing a guitar.... I'm happy with it and its been seeing some time on stage....

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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:23 am
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8) guitar!


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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:25 am
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Hey Ceri,
Thanks for the comments! I really hadn't thought the Jackson's were silk screened...I guess it's been a while since I looked at one, but usually you can see a bit of the mesh with such a detailed job. Goes to show what I know, LOL!!! That said, silk screen isn't out of the question. I've done a bit of silk screening in the past and more over, have access to the "Fab Lab" up at the college. In fact we're gearing up to do some t's for the band to sell as shows, so I may toy around with that idea for a bit.

I don't know about the specific brand, but yea...I've messed with water-slide a bit too. Was kind of considering that if I didn't come up with anything more substantial. I've played with some inkjet transfer papers as well where I've gotten some pretty decent results...although a bit trickier to work with. Some of that may simply come down to whatever design I come up with and decide to use...when I was restoring that Yamaha bass a while back, I had a dickens of a time because I wanted the Motion B logo to be in white over the black lacquer...and obviously inkjets just don't print in white! That's how I ended up using the transfer stuff...I was able to print a thin black outline of the lettering/logo, then airbrush the white into the outline which I was able to apply to the body before the clear coat. That stuff actually worked well with the lacquer too...no meltage at all. The only problem with it is that thus far, I've only been able to find it in 8.5 x 11 sheets...not really big enough for what I think I'm going to need...and it's fairly expensive to boot.

And yes...archival grade ink...absolutely. Yea, that whole fading thing with my photography...been there, done that! LOL!!!

Anyways, here's a link to some of my own work...both graphics and photography. The videos don't work because of an issue with my host (they're up on Youtube now) but I did this website as my final for "Web Programming" a couple of semesters back...should give you an idea of what I'm thinking of doing...

walczak.99k.org


Ok...again much thanks for the comments. I really wouldn't have thought that stuff was silk screened, so that gives me something to chew on for a bit.

Peace,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:39 am
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DetroitBlues wrote:
Not all of us can create guitars like Ceri...

Hey, get outta here, man! :D You don't need lessons from anybody. I love that blue - metallic is not always easy, but you rocked it!

Kudos. 8)


lomitus wrote:
I really hadn't thought the Jackson's were silk screened...

Of course, I don't know about those individual guitars, but it amazes me the fine photo reproductions they can do with silk screens these days. It's changed out of all recognition since... the old days.

Anyhow. Just looking round your site so far, I want to see that Japanese lady staring out the dragon put onto a Strat:

http://walczak.99k.org/alt/graphics/graphics.html

Ideal! And different than the usual guitar artwork.

Have at it!

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:58 am
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Ceri wrote:
Anyhow. Just looking round your site so far, I want to see that Japanese lady staring out the dragon put onto a Strat:

http://walczak.99k.org/alt/graphics/graphics.html

Ideal! And different than the usual guitar artwork.

Have at it!

Cheers - C


Actually I have something of a Geisha theme planned for a different refinish project. I had picked up this strat-like body and neck at a guitar show sometime back (for a whopping $20)...based on the shape of the headstock, I -think- it was an Ibanez at one time, but I could be wrong. I'm still collecting parts for it before I get started...still looking for the right bridge and pickups (at the right price of couse), but once I get into her, I'm going to do the body in a mother of pearl white and I'm doing "Chinese food graphics" like what you see on Chinese food take out containers, including the woman playing the flute (i.e. Geisha), across the body and Chinese calligraphy on the head stock...pretty much have that one all planned out. I don't have any examples on the internet but one of the projects I did for typography class was actually Chinese carry out containers...5 separate containers each with different designs and the designs were actually based on a recipe for French Onion soup! LOL!!! Anyways, no idea how that one's gonna sound or play when it's finished, but she's gonna LOOK fabulous!

:-)


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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:26 pm
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lomitus wrote:
Hey Ceri,
Thanks for the comments! I really hadn't thought the Jackson's were silk screened...
Peace,
Jim

Jim aside from silk screening, a lot of those types of graphics are printed out on Mylar sheets and just sort of sandwiched under the top coat. think the "Foto Flame" finish Fender used on some stuff a while back, to look like flamed maple.

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Post subject: Re: Custom graphics finishes...how?
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:43 pm
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Twelvebar wrote:
lomitus wrote:
Hey Ceri,
Thanks for the comments! I really hadn't thought the Jackson's were silk screened...
Peace,
Jim

Jim aside from silk screening, a lot of those types of graphics are printed out on Mylar sheets and just sort of sandwiched under the top coat. think the "Foto Flame" finish Fender used on some stuff a while back, to look like flamed maple.



Mylar....hmmm...yea...that's kind of more along the lines of what I was expecting to hear. Didn't realize Fender had done it, but I never really looked at those that closely either. I do remember reading the words "Foto Flame" somewhere though...probably one of my catalogs or something (might have even been an old Frontline or something), so I'll have to go back and look into that a bit.

It may just be the Malibu Black talking at the moment, but we may be on to something with that...would be a lot easier than the screen printing for certain and probably easier than the water slide or transfer stuff mentioned earlier. Any idea how they might have "attached" it before shooting the clear? I'm thinking they must have used some kind of adhesive to keep it in place while the clear coat was shot...but then we're getting into that whole mixing of chemicals thing again....

Thanks,
Jim


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