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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:54 am
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xenophobe wrote:
DetroitBlues wrote:
SUSTAIN!!!! Its all about sustain. Non-locked Floyd's can cause a loss of sustain as well as a floating bridge. If you lock the Floyd or keep the tremolo blocked on a two or six point trem, the point is mute. Its all about the string vibration transferring from the bridge, through the body, and lingering for as long as possible...

But sustain is only beneficial if you play a lot of ringing chords or want to hold a single note for longer than a brief moment... Doesn't really matter if you like to shred 90 notes a second...


Nope. The difference of duration of sustain is meaningless in this context. How many bars do you want to sustain a single note or chord? How many miliseconds of extra time would you find usable?

Also, most people like it when they hold until you get that lovely tube breakup and feedback. A Floyd will get you there just a little more quickly, but probably not noticeably so.


Dive bombs and high pitched Satch squeals come from Floyd systems that are great because of the locking tuners/nut helping keep the guitar in tune regardless. That's the whole point of the Floyd, a tremolo system that theoretically doesn't go out of tune. Pinch harmonics however have nothing to do with the bridge system.

Feedback and tube breakup? Hardware has nothing to do with it. Hot pickups and high gain get you there.... If you want some sort of Eddie Van Halen Squeal, humbuckers (high output), but you still need high gain for that.... I think Zak Wylde will argue that point in my favor too...No Floyd Rose on his Les Paul.

The only Stratocaster single coil player out there that does the pinch harmonics, high gain stuff is Malmsteen, but even his pickups are hotter than most true single coils out there.

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:11 am
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DetroitBlues wrote:

The only Stratocaster single coil player out there that does the pinch harmonics, high gain stuff is Malmsteen, but even his pickups are hotter than most true single coils out there.


Gallagher (not high gain, of course)
Thomas Blug

and many others did or do it, using standard strat trems as well as Floyd systems

I agree, tube breakup and feedback has nothing to do with the trem system, neither have pinch harmonics.

It is true though, that crappy trems which kill off sustain and tone will of course also affect feedback. If string vibration is killed, so is feedback (unless it's the squeal from crappy pickups :wink: ). :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:59 pm
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DetroitBlues wrote:
xenophobe wrote:
DetroitBlues wrote:
SUSTAIN!!!! Its all about sustain. Non-locked Floyd's can cause a loss of sustain as well as a floating bridge. If you lock the Floyd or keep the tremolo blocked on a two or six point trem, the point is mute. Its all about the string vibration transferring from the bridge, through the body, and lingering for as long as possible...

But sustain is only beneficial if you play a lot of ringing chords or want to hold a single note for longer than a brief moment... Doesn't really matter if you like to shred 90 notes a second...


Nope. The difference of duration of sustain is meaningless in this context. How many bars do you want to sustain a single note or chord? How many miliseconds of extra time would you find usable?

Also, most people like it when they hold until you get that lovely tube breakup and feedback. A Floyd will get you there just a little more quickly, but probably not noticeably so.


Dive bombs and high pitched Satch squeals come from Floyd systems that are great because of the locking tuners/nut helping keep the guitar in tune regardless. That's the whole point of the Floyd, a tremolo system that theoretically doesn't go out of tune. Pinch harmonics however have nothing to do with the bridge system.


What is your point?

You can easily dive bomb on a Fender 2 point trem. My American Deluxe Strat with Schaller locking tuners and LSR Roller Nut stays in tune just as well as any of my Floyded guitars.


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Feedback and tube breakup? Hardware has nothing to do with it. Hot pickups and high gain get you there.... If you want some sort of Eddie Van Halen Squeal, humbuckers (high output), but you still need high gain for that.... I think Zak Wylde will argue that point in my favor too...No Floyd Rose on his Les Paul.


:lol:

Yeah, feedback and tube breakup are only for metalheads. :lol:


Quote:
The only Stratocaster single coil player out there that does the pinch harmonics, high gain stuff is Malmsteen, but even his pickups are hotter than most true single coils out there.


Ok. Whatever you say. lol


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:25 pm
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As far as tuning stability goes, a set of locking tuners does help a little, but the problem lies with the tension of the strings between the nut and the tuners vs. nut and the saddles.

The main advantage with locking tuners is that amount of time it takes to change a string, and you don't have wrap the sting around the string post so many times. This also addresses tuning stability vs. vintage style or standard tuners where there may be a little string 'slack' around the string post.

The Floyd rose idea, was to address the issue entirely by clamping down strings at both the nut and the bridge to give ultimate stability.

However, as we are getting off topic- people talk about bridge mass when talking about resonance. I heard some people say that they make the guitar sound thin which in my experience is a load of rubbish. I guess they are talking if the bridge was floating, however in a Strat (with exception of Japanese HRR models) they are largely set to flush against the body. If anything it will add to the amount of resonance because of the mass and also the bridge has more contact with the body.

Thoughts?

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:52 am
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Blertles wrote:
I heard some people say that they make the guitar sound thin which in my experience is a load of rubbish. I guess they are talking if the bridge was floating, however in a Strat (with exception of Japanese HRR models) they are largely set to flush against the body. If anything it will add to the amount of resonance because of the mass and also the bridge has more contact with the body.

Thoughts?


Yes, it refers to floating systems, of course. It wouldn't make sense to lock down a Floyd.

If trems are blocket or set with the base plate having body contact, the mass of the trem still has a little influence but not much. There's enough contact between the parts to deliver transport of the vibrations to the body.

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:02 pm
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I have both and a 6 screw Blade Runner.
They all sound really cool and really different.
I didnt notice my tone being murdered on any of the 3

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:00 pm
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donnycraven wrote:
I have both and a 6 screw Blade Runner.
They all sound really cool and really different.
I didnt notice my tone being murdered on any of the 3

Image


Is the Floyd on your am.deluxe retro-fitted or is that stock? Love that guitar by the way!

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:31 am
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Its a mod job pro done.

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:18 am
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I've thought about the LSR nut. How much does it affect tone?

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:30 am
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DetroitBlues wrote:
I've thought about the LSR nut. How much does it affect tone?

Alot, i dont like it but if you have it with locking tuners and a deluxe locking bridge you stay in tune perfectly

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:13 pm
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I don't think the LSR nut affects tone all that much. Acoustic tone of my Deluxe Strat isn't all that different to the Floyd nut on my CS Charvel. They're both maple necks with ebony fretboards and alder bodies. The Fender is louder acoustically, but that's because it is front loaded and the Charvel is rear loaded, but they both have similar un-amplified tone.

I'm aware that's even not a valid comparison but that's as close as I can do.

In any event, once you fret a note, any difference in tone will be negated, so maybe it affects open string notes, but that's about it, IMO.


Back to topic though, this is about the Fender 2-point trem which is designed to be a floating bridge. The Fender 2-point trem on my Masterbuilt or my Deluxe are nice (definitely nicer than any of the lower-cost versions Fender offers), but they're not in the same quality league as an Original Floyd Rose or Gotoh Floyd.

Any number of other factors that people are talking about will affect the tone, but is off topic. Stuff like using X amount of springs with Y amount of tension, blocking the trem so it will only dive or to lock it down completely, as well as how it's set-up isn't really part of the discussion because that's not how the trem was originally intended for and arguing whether or not a maple/mahogany/whatever blocked Fender 2-point trem sounds better or worse than a Floyd with a stop, ESP Arming Adjuster, Ibanez Zero Point or Tre-mel-no is really pointless.

The truth is that most people don't really know how to set up a floating trem properly so they end up hating it. Or that the trem they're using is sub-par.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention... both the 2-Point Fender and a OFR can be installed so they're both flat-mounted like the 2-point or v-trem so you can't pull up. So that point is kind of moot as well, I think.


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:42 am
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xenophobe wrote:
The truth is that most people don't really know how to set up a floating trem properly so they end up hating it. Or that the trem they're using is sub-par.


That's what I think, too!

A Floyd is more complicated and causes more work.
Once perfectly set up, nothing can beat a high quality Floyd! NOTHING!
(set to FLOATING, of course!)

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:49 pm
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Smokin' Frets wrote:
xenophobe wrote:
The truth is that most people don't really know how to set up a floating trem properly so they end up hating it. Or that the trem they're using is sub-par.


That's what I think, too!

A Floyd is more complicated and causes more work.
Once perfectly set up, nothing can beat a high quality Floyd! NOTHING!
(set to FLOATING, of course!)


Precisely,
I never could understand the big deal because it just didn't work for me.
So then I did the set-ups as suggested earlier here in this thread
(thanks to all for sharing)
and now it works great and I love it !


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:52 pm
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The LSR seems to be a bit wirey sounding for lack of a better word it also does not hold a harmonic well when whammied.
For overall best tone My 09 Highway 1 with its Blade Runner and Graph Tech nut and guides is just an incredible piece of work.
it gets an icredible tone.
Both companies claim to add tone and sustain with they're product and get 5 stars.
I have went thru about 5 strats in the past 5 years modding and searching for exeactly what I wanted.
When I got the Deluxe I was really happy at first but began to notice fall backs of the LSR.
It is a good concept but you sacrifice tone for tuning.
In putting in a floyd I sacrificed vintage strat tone.
I have found probably the coolest sound is a 6 screw Blade Runner and graph tech nut and guides locking tuners big 70s peg head.
Just use lithium grease in the nut and a boss tuner.
Guitar tremolos, tone, and setup are kind of like religion and politics.
Everyone sees it with a different minds eye and are passionate about what they think is right.
Noone can quit understand where they are comin from no matter how much detail they go into.

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:48 pm
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This is just my extra $.02 worth...I haven't read all the other post so please forgive me if I ad anything terribly redundant.

Regarding tuning stability, the key with -any- trem, locking or non-locking is in the setup. A poorly setup Floyd WILL go out just as easily as the most inexpensive Strat knock-off you've ever played. That said, watch someone like Stevie Ray Vaughn...he worked the bejeezes out of the trem and his tuning always seemed pretty stable. And if ya think about it, stuff like Floyd's and locking tuners and such weren't even around in Hendrix's day...and he seemed to do pretty well without them :-)

Now on the LSR comments, this is just my own personal opinion and experience but I really just don't think they're worth it. I put one on my '96 MIM and honestly, I wish I hadn't. No, I don't think it changed the tone at all...you'll get CONSIDERABLY more from changing the trem block or the pups in that regard. That said, compared with a properly cut/filed nut...it really just don't improve your tuning stability either. This is really key and comes right back to a proper setup. There's A LOT of people for example who will go out and get a Strat (or any other guitar really) then change string sizes...go up from the factory .009's to a set of .010's or even .011's and NEVER have the nut re-filed for the new string size. This causes the string to pinch in the slots and causes tuning problems out the wazoo. As far as tuning stability goes, a properly filed nut and a tich of graphite will carry you just as far as an LSR will. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a guitar that had one...nothing really wrong with them, but for the $40 for the nut and especially having to cut into the neck to install it...no...I'd never do it again. Just not worth it.

Beyond that, I also really have to add that as far as guitars go, ya gotta remember that they are (most often) made out of wood. My front man and I were just discussing this the other night...here in Ohio, it's winter right now and when we do a show, yes, those guitars come out of a basement studio which is a pretty constant 60'ish degrees, they go into a cold minivan that gets warm on the way to the show, then they go out into the cold again, then into a warm(er) bar. Then they are played by an even warmer body that (most of the time) is around 98.6 degrees. Even Bob's Takamine acoustic which has NO TREM AT ALL, goes out of tune a bit as we're playing that first set! The guitar cools down and it goes a bit flat, it warms up, it goes a bit sharp...and this doesn't even take humidity into consideration....tis the nature of wood. My solution? I bought a Snark...now I just check my tuning between songs.

I love my Snark 8) .

Just my own opinions as always.
Jim


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