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Post subject: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:11 am
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Hi guys,

I have recently encountered a debate about Floyd Rose terms and how they are perceived to be 'tone killers'. Personally for me, I have owned two Strats that have had Floyd Rose trems also I have a few strats that have 2 point trems. My Floyds have (and still) been set flat. So for me, the jury is out.

I want to hear your thoughts and experiences on this. Which has more tone and resonance-

This:

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..Or this?
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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:19 am
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The Floyd possible kills tone on a dive. 2 point hangs in there longer and deeper. Anyway that's what I have read in Dan Erlewine's book on "How to make your electric guitar play great."


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:30 am
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I play Floyds, I play floating Strat trems (2-point and 6-screw attachment) and I play most strats with fixed trems.

There are minor to major differences between different Floyd Rose systems. Get a good one and you won't loose anything regarding tone and sustain. I use Ibanez Edge and Edge Lo Pro systems and they sound great! My Ibanez JEM is right up head to head with any of my American Strats, with a slightly different sound, of course. Long sustain (clean sounds as well!), fast attack and response, fat, lively tone.
I can't complain about my Floyd systems at all!

Cheap Floyds are a different topic! Edge III, LoTRS I & II, Edge Pro II, Edge Zero II and similar cheap crap certainly can reduce tone, attack/response and sustain because they use inferior materials which often don't perfectly fit, they wear off pretty fast, all of which reduces overall usability of those systems and they're usually found on lower budget guitars (which doesn't mean the guitars are bad but the trems are!).
I play a cheap Ibanez RG350 which I upgraded with an Edge LoPro and I would never give it away. Before, it had an Edge III and it really drove me nuts!

I would like to confirm, that blocked (flat on body) trems tend to deliver a slightly meatier/fuller sound but I didn't experience any change in sustain or attack/response.

After all, it's a sum of all parts, of course. The best Floyd Rose can't deliver more than the actual guitar can. Crappy wood, bad quality, sloppy assembling can't be improved or "nullified" by whatever perfect trem system!

If you ask me (proper quality parts provided!): the described phenomenon belongs to "I can hear the fleas cough" stories, as well as "I hate Floyds, so there must be an explanation for that".
Some people really believe, that sanding off a square inch of a guitar's finish makes the guitar sound "more open, unrestrained". :shock:
One of so many other "legends" in the guitarist's world. ;)
(thinking of that reminds me: I'll have to get new screws for my pickguard, the slight rust on some of them makes my guitar sound dull!) :twisted:

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:38 am
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SNick wrote:
The Floyd possible kills tone on a dive. 2 point hangs in there longer and deeper. Anyway that's what I have read in Dan Erlewine's book on "How to make your electric guitar play great."


Floyds are 2-point as well! :wink:

The dying sustain (and therefore dying tone as well) has nothing to do with the trem itself, it has to do with reduced string tension in a dive (laws of physics). (given that both trems are of good quality, all parts are snug fit and work together properly)

Both trem systems (2-point or Floyd) rest on two pole studs with their knive edges.

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STRATS ROCK!!! but Teles and Firebirds, too!


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:03 pm
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An Original Floyd Rose isn't a tone killer. Cheap, crappy Asian copies are tone killers. OFRs have nickel coated brass spring blocks. Crappy Asian Floyd copies generally have pot metal spring blocks. That's why the brass big blocks are so popular.

Springs are also another important factor. Good quality high tension springs are a must. many Floyds come with crappy springs. You'll immediately feel it, and see it. They can rob tone and cause tuning instability.

The difference in sustain between a properly set up Floyd and a hardtail is meaningless. The double locking Floyd is more tuning stable than a non-locking 2-point trem. The 2-point trem with locking tuners can be fairly stable, but it varies from guitar to guitar really.

My favorite trem is the Gotoh Floyd Rose. Next best would be a Schaller Floyd Rose.


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:14 pm
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kingofesquire wrote:
Jeff Beck prefers the 2 point Fender tremolo, over his 1980's Dinky "Floyd Rose" equiped Jacksons....there must be a reason for this.


Yes! Personal preference but not quality or sound issues. :wink:
Maybe he's just too lazy for Floyds? More work when restringing, more difficult to set up.

Just because a promi uses something, it doesn't mean it's good or others are bad.

As we can see here in the forum every day: a lot is just personal taste and preference. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:22 pm
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xenophobe wrote:
An Original Floyd Rose isn't a tone killer. Cheap, crappy Asian copies are tone killers. OFRs have nickel coated brass spring blocks. Crappy Asian Floyd copies generally have pot metal spring blocks. That's why the brass big blocks are so popular.


Agreed. Most licensed FR systems suck tone like it's going out of fashion and that's where the reputation comes from, but if you want to compare, then you'd have to put them against the hundreds of cheap horrid non-locking trems out there which seem to be made from recycled cans and string. A good genuine FR is a surprisingly good sounding system.

I still don't like them, but that's just a personal preference in feel rather than anything particularly tone related.


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:21 pm
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kingofesquire wrote:
Jeff Beck has a guitar tech stringing and fixing his guitars. JB is also mechanic, who's hobby is building hot rods. I doubt it that he has any difficulty changing strings or using a FR. JB does alot of palm work on a Fender Tremolo, therefore the FR fine tuners probably get in the way.


So it's personal preference.

I also prefer the LoPro instead of the original edge because it was improved by lowering the fine tuners. Great advantage when playing palm mutes. :)

BTW, I'm a mechanic as well (learned to be a helicopter and airplane mechanic before I started to fly them) but that doesn't keep me from getting lazy or annoyed by some systems. :wink:
Just mentioning. :wink:

Back to topic: I agree with some posters above: it was the cheap crappy Asian copies which ruined the Floyd's reputation for many guitarists.

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STRATS ROCK!!! but Teles and Firebirds, too!


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:05 pm
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OK, so now I gotta ask.

I recently got a new MIM HH blacktop with "a" Floyd Rose bridge.
Stock factory productiuon. Is that the cheapie or the quality unit?
Reason I ask:
After a dive, everything drops flat almost half-a-note.
A quick stretch remediates this.
Conversely, after a stretch, everything goes sharp almost half-a-note.
A quick push remediates this.

Is this normal?
A great-sounding playable guitar, otherwise.


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:52 am
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I'm not familiar with the Floyds they use on Mex strats but what you describe sounds like an imperfect setup or worn out knife edges or worn out nut locks (if there is a locking nut).

Either the strings are slipping somewhere or the trem doesn't fully return into neutral position due to incorrect setup/adjustment.

Have you EVER turned the pole studs of the trem in or out while having the guitar under full string tension?
The knife edges MUST NOT touch the poles while adjusting the height of the trem, otherwise the knife edges are busted real easily, which might lead to the malfunction you described.

Go online, there's many posts which perfectly describe a complete and perfect setup. Do a setup and try again.

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My recordings --> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_mu ... dID=564337
STRATS ROCK!!! but Teles and Firebirds, too!


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:01 am
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ADVICE:

http://audiozone.dk/index-filer/floyd-tremolo-tips.htm

and other sites. Keep looking.
Good advice for Floyd Rose Systems can be found here as well:

http://www.jemsite.com/forums/

OIL IS VERY IMPORTANT, TOO. After all, it's a moveable mechanical device. It needs maintenance.

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My recordings --> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_mu ... dID=564337
STRATS ROCK!!! but Teles and Firebirds, too!


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:44 am
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kingofesquire wrote:
I prefer the Fender Tremolo over the Floyd Rose. There is a difference in sound between both systems, and how they respond when used. The Floyd will provide more range in detuning, due to the fact that the strings compress differently due to the locking nut, than with the tuning machines. When detuning, the change of pitch is more rapid than the Fender system. The Fender system detunes smoother and has more range and you can manipulate the bar to hit certain notes easier. Some Floyd Rose equiped guitars are rear routed, therefore you can get extended upward pitch. Fenders are not rear routed for this. The Fender will give you vintage tremolo style "Hendrix" divebombs, vs. the EVH ones after 1979. Having the strings flop around like spaghetti was nice in the 80's, but in reality not very musical. Jeff Beck prefers the 2 point Fender tremolo, over his 1980's Dinky "Floyd Rose" equiped Jacksons....there must be a reason for this.


There's so much wrong with this post, I don't even know where to begin... :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:23 am
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SUSTAIN!!!! Its all about sustain. Non-locked Floyd's can cause a loss of sustain as well as a floating bridge. If you lock the Floyd or keep the tremolo blocked on a two or six point trem, the point is mute. Its all about the string vibration transferring from the bridge, through the body, and lingering for as long as possible...

But sustain is only beneficial if you play a lot of ringing chords or want to hold a single note for longer than a brief moment... Doesn't really matter if you like to shred 90 notes a second...

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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:39 pm
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DetroitBlues wrote:
SUSTAIN!!!! Its all about sustain. Non-locked Floyd's can cause a loss of sustain as well as a floating bridge. If you lock the Floyd or keep the tremolo blocked on a two or six point trem, the point is mute. Its all about the string vibration transferring from the bridge, through the body, and lingering for as long as possible...

But sustain is only beneficial if you play a lot of ringing chords or want to hold a single note for longer than a brief moment... Doesn't really matter if you like to shred 90 notes a second...


Nope. The difference of duration of sustain is meaningless in this context. How many bars do you want to sustain a single note or chord? How many miliseconds of extra time would you find usable?

Also, most people like it when they hold until you get that lovely tube breakup and feedback. A Floyd will get you there just a little more quickly, but probably not noticeably so.


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Post subject: Re: Tone: 2 point Trem vs. Floyd Rose
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:19 am
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xenophobe wrote:
DetroitBlues wrote:
SUSTAIN!!!! Its all about sustain. Non-locked Floyd's can cause a loss of sustain as well as a floating bridge.


Nope. The difference of duration of sustain is meaningless in this context. How many bars do you want to sustain a single note or chord? How many miliseconds of extra time would you find usable?

Also, most people like it when they hold until you get that lovely tube breakup and feedback. A Floyd will get you there just a little more quickly, but probably not noticeably so.


+1

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STRATS ROCK!!! but Teles and Firebirds, too!


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