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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:13 pm
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German transistor amp, PCL Vintage from Jürgen Rath. Not one tube in there, the fun starts at 3:00, check 4:20 for a Santana like sweet, singing lead tone:
Sorry for the german blabla
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSzqj5u6Tqs

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:15 pm
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I suppose that the so-called "true sound" of a guitar can only be heard by plugging a set of headphones into the output jack. Of course only one side of the headphones work, and the sound is barely audible, with the acoustic sound being much louder. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:29 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
I suppose that the so-called "true sound" of a guitar can only be heard by plugging a set of headphones into the output jack. Of course only one side of the headphones work, and the sound is barely audible, with the acoustic sound being much louder. :lol:


Of course in this instance, the listener is beholden to the frequency response of the headphones and their ability to serve as a credible sonic "yardstick"......

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:32 pm
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Lol, I think it is safe to say the amp is an instrument on it´s own. Anything you use is right if you like it.
I liked the sound of my old tube radio back in the days but I prefer my ENGL Blackmore these days.
Anyway I changed the sound of my playing without amplification way more than the amp sound if that makes sense.
I don´t know how I would sound through my old tube radio because I don´t have it anymore. Maybe I would be surprised :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:35 pm
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Robinstrat wrote:
Lol, I think it is safe to say the amp is an instrument on it´s own.


If I'm not mistaken, someone once wrote and titled a book as "Amps: The Other Half Of Rock & Roll". Thus, you may be onto something in that regard.

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:25 pm
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I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of folks in this thread that have been complementary toward solid state amps.

:)

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:32 pm
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I think back to the time I saw The Who during their "Sunn" era. Pete and The Ox were both playing alpine-sized stacks of Coliseums. And there wasn't a damn thing wrong with either of their tones.

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:17 am
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mhowell wrote:
I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of folks in this thread that have been complementary toward solid state amps.

:)


There are some really, really nice solid state amps out there, just as there are some really, really awful tube amps. A few pretty glowing bottles does not guarantee good tone, just as a collection of transistors and opamps doesn't prevent that happening - A good circuit design is a good circuit design!


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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:48 am
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Vulpinity wrote:
A few pretty glowing bottles does not guarantee good tone, just as a collection of transistors and opamps doesn't prevent that happening - A good circuit design is a good circuit design!


Very good point. It´s a matter of shaping the sound and boosting/cutting frequencies and shaping the overdrive structure.

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:21 am
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Robinstrat wrote:
Vulpinity wrote:
A few pretty glowing bottles does not guarantee good tone, just as a collection of transistors and opamps doesn't prevent that happening - A good circuit design is a good circuit design!


Very good point. It´s a matter of shaping the sound and boosting/cutting frequencies and shaping the overdrive structure.

All the best,
Robin


It's my opinion that a solid state (and by that I mean conventional circuit design, rather than computer modelling) amp, if well designed, can sound and feel every bit as good as a good tube amp. Would anyone buy it? Probably not! And therein lies the problem. :mrgreen:

Suitably talented electronics experts don't work for free, and manufacturers will only pay to create what they can sell - and there are a large amount of guitarists who would put up with an average sounding tube amp rather than pay the same amount for a superb sounding solid state one, pure because 'It's got tubes, it must be good!'. So you end up with the case that most solid state amps are aimed at the budget end of the market, and are pretty awful designs housed in chipboard cabinets with the cheapest possible speakers. No way those are ever going to sound any good - and neither would they if they were stuffed full of the finest NOS tubes.

Some of the 'hybrid' designs are quite amusing - people feel that little bit better about them, even though on at least a couple of them the 12ax7 in the preamp was pretty much sat there with the heater filaments powered and not much else, but that was enough to make people suddenly make big claims of being able to hear the warmth and tone of the tube. :lol:

I think a lot of the tube snobbery came about due to the first wave of transistor amps, most of which were truly, truly horrible. :shock:


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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:38 am
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my own experience with the solid state amps I've owned, both analog and digital, is that I found they got harsh sounding as the volume was increased - at low volumes they sounded fine.

Even my cheap chinese built Laney Cub 12R sounds better. This may be due to the theory that a lot of manufacturers relegated solid state amps to the low end of their line as opposed to building a good circuit worthy of the stage.

That being said, as I mentioned earlier the Roland JC-120 is a great amp. Also, Randall made some great solid state amps - Dimebag used solid state Randall amps to get his sound during the Pantera days. Solid State doesn't = crap... it depends on whether the manufacturer bothered to design a great amp or not.


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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:04 am
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Guitar_Fiend wrote:
my own experience with the solid state amps I've owned, both analog and digital, is that I found they got harsh sounding as the volume was increased - at low volumes they sounded fine.


+1
That goes for every solid state amp I played, even the ones with tube(s) in the preamp.

Referring to one of the posts above:
I guess, if somebody says they sound as good as tube amps, he/she played clean sounds.

Distortion always sounds kinda artificial, kinda disc-saw-like at higher volumes.

That's even the case with my Fender Cyber Twin, one of the best ones you can get.
Sounds great up to crunch but beyond that, it turns into sounding like a cheap digital distortion pedal.

If you are into higher gain sounds, nothing can beat a good tube amp.
That being said by a guy who really likes modeling amps and played them for almost 15 years.
I liked them but whenever I played a tube amp, it was a completely different world. I just didn't need one for just playing in my living room at very low volumes.

I would even gig (and did!) with my Cyber Twin, as long as it's no hard rock or metal.

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:10 pm
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When it comes to new gear the tubes amps usually are better! But it's not because they're tube amps.

If a manufacturer wants to build an inexpensive entry level amp that has any features other than volume and tone there is almost no choice but to go SS. (A few imports have managed to break this rule with some success.)

The cheapest, no frills, tube amp is still going to require a heavier chassis, output transformer, beefier power transformer/supply, tube sockets, and tubes. The BOM (Bill of Material) cost for just those parts is already as much as a complete SS amp. The company bean counters will put up roadblocks to any R&D type that even suggest a student model tube amp. If R&D wants a tube amp it has to make money, so it has to be expensive, therefore it has be a professional model.

Not so with a SS amp. A SS amp can be built to fit in a cigarette pack and sold for $50.

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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:04 am
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Well I pretty much said what I wanted to say with my last post...I shall there for say some more. As always, just my own opinions.

Ok...first off, in debating tube vs. ss, we can NOT compare "cheap practice amps" with amps that are considered "professional". I.e., as already stated, most it comes down the circuit design, speakers and so forth, but very simply a little $100 Peavey Rage is -never- going to sound like a Lab, a Roland JC or even some of the Fender SS's that have come out over the years. And Line 6? I never got the appeal....sorry...I just don't get it. I could shove any of my amps in a dumpster and they'd still sound better to me. For that matter, I've played a couple of newer Peavey's at GC in the past couple of years...even my 80's Backstage sounds better :?

Yea, I got a little Roland MicroCube...it's nice if for no other reason than it's battery powered...I can take it up to the college or out to the beach (or even just in the car) and it does what I need it to do. For what it is, I can't even complain about the tone...it's not really that bad at all. Would I gig with it? -NO-. And this is where I think we need to draw a distinction...it's a practice amp. It's something that I can drag with me virtually anywhere and I can even dial in an effect or two (which is why I got this instead of a Pignose)...again instead of being exclusively stuck down in the studio...or at least some place that has a power outlet...I can head out to the beach and sit on a park bench while I'm working out my chops.

That said however, I would also have to add breifly that I can't knock an amp based on it's price either. Quite frankly I've gotten more compliments about my tone with this $350 Bugera than I -ever- got with my old Bandmaster. I know there's a few folks who also have a stigma against the name "Behringer", the folks that make Bugera's (mainly Mackie fans), but I have several pieces of Behringer gear and like Peavey of the 80's, it hasn't let me down yet...and this little Bugera just rocks :-).

Now on the "harsheness" associated with SS...I have to debate that. Again the amp I'm gigging with now (while I'm waiting for the money to get new tubes for the Bugera) is a little Fender Princeton 112 Plus...snagged it a while back used at GC for $75. The clean channel is of course everything you'd expect from a Fender, but the drive channel really isn't bad at all...some pretty decent crunch there. Compare it to that Peavey of mine and "the lil' Fender that could" just sounds amazing! If I have any complaints about the little Fender, it's simply the volume knob...I wish it was a bit more "linear". All of the raw power seems to be between 1 and 4, then it just slowly eases off the rest of the way up to 10...I wish it had a more even taper because it makes it a bit difficult to dial in the right level in smaller clubs ("What do you mean I'm too loud? The amps only set on -1-!!!!" LOL!). Then there's my Kustom Lead III head... I stopped using it because..well...I'm getting old (or at least my lower back is) and I'm simply beyond the days of hauling around a 2x12, let alone a 4x12 cabinet any more...even a half stack is more than I feel like dragging up and down stairs and around parking lots and such. That said, the drive/crunch on this thing is...errmmm...harsh isn't the word (neither is "sweet"). The only way I can really describe it is -grunge-. If I were in say a Neil Young tribute band, I'd probably go back to using the Kustom...that's pretty much the sound (LOL). And my Lab L5...I can pretty much dial in just about any tone I want with her (although she's at her best mimicking a Twin). Pretty much the best sounding amp I own, but again...heavy 2x12 combo and for the difference, the Bugera, Fender and even the Peavey are just MUCH easier to haul around.

Beyond that, I would simply reiterate my earlier comments in that in the real world, there's just soooooo much more to "tone" than just the amp (or guitar)...tube, ss or otherwise. If you're playing in a crowded bar on a Saturday night, I can promise you that even other guitar players are NOT going to be able to tell whether you're using tube or solid state. In my 30 years of playing, I have NEVER had a single person walk up to me and say "Dude...that was a great lead, but you'd sound so much better thru a Marshall (or Randall or Line 6 or tube amp......)". If your gear just sounds like crap (see my comment about the guy with the Magnatone below)...yea...that they'll notice, but otherwise it's -ALL- about how well you play. If you play well, I can promise you that not one person in that crowded bar is going to care whether you're using tube or solid state, regardless of brand...and if you suck, the amp really just doesn't matter.

Vulpinity wrote:
...and there are a large amount of guitarists who would put up with an average sounding tube amp rather than pay the same amount for a superb sounding solid state one, pure because 'It's got tubes, it must be good!'


Dude...you soooooooo hit the nail on the head! Yea...I worked with a guy (breifly) back in the late 90's that was like this. He used to play thru this crappy little tube amp...I think it was a Magnatone or something...the kind of garbage that you'd find at a garage sale for $25. Can't even say that thing sounded "average"...horrible tone, no definition at all...and the thing used to "rattle" as he played it. The guy wouldn't even touch a SS...he'd just walk away and not even play. That said, his band (after I told the guy to F off) was playing at a local club that my band used to play at back in the early 00's...the bar manager actually asked them to leave half way thru the second set because this guy's sound was just soooooooo bad. It wasn't music by any definition...just badly garbled distortion. He pretty much cleared the bar.

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I think a lot of the tube snobbery came about due to the first wave of transistor amps, most of which were truly, truly horrible. :shock:


I agree, but I think I'd take it even one step further and say those early Fender solid states. Sunn for example made some pretty wicked amps back in those days (particularly their bass amps) but those early 70's Fenders...they had a well earned reputation for catching fire on the showroom floor! Just nasty buggers to say the least. From what I've read over the years the mentality behind this was pretty much based on similar mentality in the auto industry at the time...QC didn't really exist back in those days and the corporate philosophy was "let the dealer fix it". I also believe that this, more than anything else, is what caused the negative stigma over the CBS era of Fender....the tube amps and the guitars weren't really that bad, but those early Fender SS's...oye!!! With that, as the saying goes, "give a dog a bad name and you can hang him with it"...even younger folk who have never touched one of those early Fenders have it in their heads that somehow ss is just less desirable than tubes.


Again just my own opinions...use them for what you think they're worth!
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Solid State amp. Guitar's true sound?
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:06 pm
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lomitus wrote:
... Again the amp I'm gigging with now (while I'm waiting for the money to get new tubes for the Bugera) is a little Fender Princeton 112 Plus...snagged it a while back used at GC for $75. ...


This is one more in a growing list of compliments I've read about that amp. If half of what I've heard about the princeton 112 and princeton 112 plus is true then it must be the bargain of the century.

They're available so cheap I might just pick one up.

Thanks,

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