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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:24 am
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Good to hear from you again,Jim. Hope all is well with you. Appears we're into this hot topic for at least the third time in the past 5.5 years of our existence, and there is no loss for new material. The issue, from your perspective, is most interesting, in that your other gig was well known, but not this one. I have personal knowledge of the fact that we do have an accomplished artists among our number but I'll leave it to them to find this and weigh in if they care to. I've already waxed poetic on this matter, more than once, and have offered legal opinion, courtesy of a good friend as support. I'll sit this one out for awhile and let the new comers to the topic have at it. Have a great year and all best wishes to the lady.
Doc :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:36 am
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lomitus wrote:
These are, as always, just my own personal opinions, but I think Retro pretty much hit it up there...so much of this debate comes down to "intent".


Well said. The intent is at the root of all of it.
While a legit manufacturer may say "These are legit fakes" (sounds like a contradiction of terms, I know), invariably, these items will get passed off on an internet market or at a yard sale to the NEXT buyer as real deals.
That's really the criminal part, and the manufacturer, in this case, is not an accessory to the crime.

The whole thing is really an uneccessary shame and shouldn't even happen in the first place.
(oh, wait, this isn't a perfect world? :cry: )
Just my basic opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:03 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
Good to hear from you again,Jim. Hope all is well with you. Appears we're into this hot topic for at least the third time in the past 5.5 years of our existence, and there is no loss for new material. The issue, from your perspective, is most interesting, in that your other gig was well known, but not this one. I have personal knowledge of the fact that we do have an accomplished artists among our number but I'll leave it to them to find this and weigh in if they care to. I've already waxed poetic on this matter, more than once, and have offered legal opinion, courtesy of a good friend as support. I'll sit this one out for awhile and let the new comers to the topic have at it. Have a great year and all best wishes to the lady.
Doc :wink:



Hey Doc...good to hear from you too. Sorry I've been away for so long...between having gone back to college two years ago, trying to sell the house and buy a new one (the wife is currently working 77 miles from home...hour and half drive each way), the house falling apart (had second floor 80 year old pipes explode earlier this year...had to tear out 2 walls, a floor and rebuild the shower room followed by a new roof on the house, blown off in the hurricane and another new roof.......) and the proliferation of family medical issues over the past few years, most recently with my Dad collapsing back in October (still in the hospital...in and out of ICU's and LTAC's and such...he's been all but pronounced dead at least 4 times...they read him last rights back on Oct 27th)...not to mention being in a working band again (soon to be 2 working bands with some luck)...yea...that whole time thing has been at a serious premium for me...and internet forums just haven't been a priority. I think this week has been my first real break since...ummm...Oct of 09 when Mom passed away....been pretty much running on my toes ever since.

Anyways, yea...you're right...this one's an old topic. I probably should have let it slide as well. I'll just blame it on the rum and smoke last night :-)

Okies...Peace!
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:14 pm
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Hoping this year shines a bright light on you and yours. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:48 pm
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I actually had a guitar in my teens that was a mish mash of guitars and ultimately sounded like a pile of ...well you know. Anyway I had a friend whos father worked for a company that made stickers and decals and had him make me a fender decal for it, Only It read "Fender Notsocaster"

Guitar was later used as fire wood.

Dave.

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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:03 am
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Ok...here's an interesting question...sort of a twist on this current topic...

How do ya'll feel about modifying an existing logo? Say someone (like me) recently picked up a Strat like the MIM "Squier Series" (which I did) where it does have a genuine and legit Fender logo on the headstock (which it does)...but it's plain black. Say this someone was also an artist (and knows several other artists) and was considering "filling in" the logo as it is on the headstock with either gold or silver so that it looked like the more well known Fender logos used on the MIM's in the 90's. Would that be considered some kind of horrifically immoral crime?

Not that any comments posted would deter or induce this increasingly hypothetical person in either direction (LOL)...just curious as to how some folks here would respond to this. We'll call it a psychology experiment :-)

I look forward to the responses...
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:14 am
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Taking flight from your original premises.....as long as it was for your own personal use, what does it matter?

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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:21 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
Taking flight from your original premises.....as long as it was for your own personal use, what does it matter?


Hehehe...honestly, just poking the bear more than anything...wanted to see how folks would react. Like I said, call it a little psych experiment.

:-)


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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:15 am
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lomitus wrote:
ZZDoc wrote:
Taking flight from your original premises.....as long as it was for your own personal use, what does it matter?


Hehehe...honestly, just poking the bear more than anything...wanted to see how folks would react. Like I said, call it a little psych experiment.

:-)

OK, so what's your intention with this logo repaint? What do you hope to achieve by it? In what way will it satisfy you...?

Ah-ha: seems I'm the psychiatrist and you're the patient. My fee is enormous, you understand that? Psychiatry: you talk, I earn. Your pain is my gain. 8)

(To paraphrase Forum user Twelvebar, I'm not really a psychiatrist. I just play one on the internet.)

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:56 pm
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newfmp3 wrote:
If it's not made by Fender, it should not be allowed to have Fender on it. No exceptions, peiod.



I've been thinking the same thing ever since Leo left the company but I don't think they're going to stop.


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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:02 pm
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lomitus wrote:
Ok...here's an interesting question...sort of a twist on this current topic...

How do ya'll feel about modifying an existing logo? Say someone (like me) recently picked up a Strat like the MIM "Squier Series" (which I did) where it does have a genuine and legit Fender logo on the headstock (which it does)...but it's plain black. Say this someone was also an artist (and knows several other artists) and was considering "filling in" the logo as it is on the headstock with either gold or silver so that it looked like the more well known Fender logos used on the MIM's in the 90's. Would that be considered some kind of horrifically immoral crime?

Not that any comments posted would deter or induce this increasingly hypothetical person in either direction (LOL)...just curious as to how some folks here would respond to this. We'll call it a psychology experiment :-)

I look forward to the responses...
Jim



No crime. It's your guitar, color it any way you want. Trying to pass it off for something it isn't to someone else is another story.


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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:29 pm
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johnjaypl wrote:
I've been thinking the same thing ever since Leo left the company but I don't think they're going to stop.



I find it difficult to address that comment without being a bit snide...please take these comments as being rather tongue in cheek to prove a point.

So by your logic here, when Louis Chevrolet died in 1941, the company should have stopped using his name, correct? When Colonel Adolphus Busch died in 1913, they should have changed the name of the beer to something else, right? Charles Dow has been gone since 1902 and Edward Jones since 1920...perhaps it's time the stock market address that, yes? Milton Hershey died in 1945...too bad for all the chocolate lovers out there...not to mention the folks who live in Hereshy PA....better change the name of the city to Cavityland or something.............

Starting to sound rather stupid huh??

Those issues aside, Leo didn't "leave the company", he sold it...lock, stock, barrel and -NAME-. That said unless you own pre-'65 instruments from this company exclusively, can you really imagine that CBS logo on the headstock of your Strat? Be honest.... Perhaps when the employees bought the company back in '85 they should have changed the name to ""EOTCFKAF" (Employees Of The Company Formerly Known As Fender)...wouldn't that look funky on a headstock. It wouldn't change the quality or sound of the instruments a lick...but would anyone here really be trying to defend the name at all?

For better or worse, Leo Fender not only created an icon that bore his name (a few in fact), he also created a company...a business, that likewise bore his name. He could have called it "Guitars and Amps -R- Us" or "Loud Noise Inc", but he didn't. While it goes without saying that our passions as guitar players run high regarding such issues, one must also except a degree of rationality regarding this too.

To quote Peter O'Toole, "A rose by any other name would wither and die".


Last edited by lomitus on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:43 pm
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Ceri wrote:
OK, so what's your intention with this logo repaint? What do you hope to achieve by it? In what way will it satisfy you...?


Cheers - C


In this case, aesthetics. Logo issues aside for a moment, why do you choose the color you choose for your guitar (car, kitchen...or anything else color related for that matter)? Why is one person partial to red when another is partial to blue and yet another likes yellow? My wife -hates- purple...I on the other hand think it's a rather pretty color....why? In pure terms of psychology (I'm not an actor on tv...just took the class in college), it's not like this can even be considered as "conditioned responses" as even young children are attracted to (or dislike) certain colors or certain color combinations. Some of it seems to be hardwired into our brains and certainly one could invoke "nature vs nurture" here, but what it comes down to is that we all have our own personal preferences and tastes when it comes to things such as color. Now let's take this back to guitars...

In my mind, "feel" is the singular greatest aspect regarding a guitar. Second would be sound...but with a Strat at least, it's easy enough to change the sound. Third is look/aesthetics...if I don't like the way my guitar "looks" (as with this horrible Jaundice green), I'm less inclined to pick it up and play it. That said, it's not the feel or the sound that first draws me (or most of us I suspect) to a given instrument...

For better or worse, we humans are very affected by looks, including of course, color. Think about it guys (or if you're female, feel free to reverse the genders). Do you stand there in a shopping center looking at a woman across the mall thinking "gee...I wonder what her IQ is?" or "Hmmm...I wonder if she's maybe a doctor or lawyer...?" BE HONEST!!! Are you not first attracted to that person by the way that person looks? Aren't there perhaps even one or two women you've seen in your lifetime that have left an "imprint" on your mind (maybe you even married her)? I can think of at least one case where I passed a woman in a parking lot...saw her for maybe a total of 5 seconds, but her face, her shape...her BEAUTY...has stuck with me vividly for nearly 20 years. Don't know a damn thing about her...never will. She could have been an axe murderess for all I know, but she was just a -serious- knock out! Now apply that to a guitar...you walk into a place like Guitar Center...with all those guitars up on the wall, isn't there a special one or two that "catches your eye"? Yea...sure...I want all of them too (LOL), but let's face it, there has to be something special about the aesthetic -first- that appeals to our personal sensibilities and taste.

So for me as both a guitar player and an artist, it's about creating a "look". In this case, I like the gold logos outlined in black (as well as the silver)...just a bit more detail and more appealing aesthetic. Gold or silver lettering stroked with black looks better to me than just the plain black. Black is nice, but the stroked lettering is nicer.




So that said, let's take this little mind experiment a bit further...

Let's say you buy a Mighty Mite or Warmoth neck with a plain headstock...regardless of the body or other parts, how many are apposed to putting a Squier logo on it instead of Fender? Obviously we're not talking about any serious sense of fraud here as with few exceptions, most Squiers (particularly now a days) aren't really high dollar instruments. In other words, it's not like you're going to slap "Squier Strat" on that headstock and have any chance of turning around to sell it for $1500 or anything. Again we're talking about creating a look...and aesthetic. What if I chose to put the name "Whirlpool" on my headstock...that's a trademark...do folks here have issues with that?

Comments?


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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:23 am
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Great to have him back. 8) He's never been short on words. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Does he have a point?
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:52 am
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lomitus wrote:
johnjaypl wrote:
I've been thinking the same thing ever since Leo left the company but I don't think they're going to stop.

I find it difficult to address that comment without being a bit snide...please take these comments as being rather tongue in cheek to prove a point.

So by your logic here, when Louis Chevrolet died in 1941, the company should have stopped using his name, correct?

Hi lomitus: I don't think that's what johnjaypl meant. I think he also was speaking with his tongue in his cheek and in fact was implying the same thing as you.

Cheers - C

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