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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:11 am
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So you guys wanna hide behind The Magnificent Eldred..? :lol:

Quote:
The fret calculator " DOES NOT " convert scale length

Actually, that's exactly what it can be made to do... Just change the scale length in the StewMac link above and you get the results for scale conversion.

Tempered tuning is tempered tuning in any scale, intonation issues affect every scale length.
Just out of curiosity, how would you explain those multiple scale guitars..? (They're awful, I know, but function anyway).

But: the bridge of a guitar does not know what scale it belongs to, so if a conversion neck is built to fit the old bridge position, there's no reason for it not to work. It's not a piece of cake, and I wouldn't try to do it myself, but Warmoth does, and so do some other custom part builders.

Speaking of "rocket science", fretted instruments have been around quite a long time (OK, the rockets are older, rocket science not). Google around for "17.817 constant" if you want to know more.
BTW, funny how that constant applies to different scale lengths, string vibrations, nodes etc... :twisted:


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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:09 am
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jmattis wrote:
But: the bridge of a guitar does not know what scale it belongs to, so if a conversion neck is built to fit the old bridge position, there's no reason for it not to work.


Exactly. Done it, it works, intonation was spot on up and down the neck (or as spot on as any conventional guitar can be!) according to a proper strobe tuner. Nicely done, Warmoth.

Fender did it themselves with the Mustang, of course - both 22 1/4" and 24" scale were available, only difference being the necks.


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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:31 am
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jmattis wrote:
So you guys wanna hide behind The Magnificent Eldred..? :lol:

Quote:
The fret calculator " DOES NOT " convert scale length

Actually, that's exactly what it can be made to do... Just change the scale length in the StewMac link above and you get the results for scale conversion.

Tempered tuning is tempered tuning in any scale, intonation issues affect every scale length.
Just out of curiosity, how would you explain those multiple scale guitars..? (They're awful, I know, but function anyway).

But: the bridge of a guitar does not know what scale it belongs to, so if a conversion neck is built to fit the old bridge position, there's no reason for it not to work. It's not a piece of cake, and I wouldn't try to do it myself, but Warmoth does, and so do some other custom part builders.

Speaking of "rocket science", fretted instruments have been around quite a long time (OK, the rockets are older, rocket science not). Google around for "17.817 constant" if you want to know more.
BTW, funny how that constant applies to different scale lengths, string vibrations, nodes etc... :twisted:


Hiding behind ME.... :roll:

Hardly, I am neither affiliated with FMIC or have I ever met Mike, however, I know his history in guitar world and I have to respect his knowledge, he does know his field pure and simple.

What do you mean by multiple scale guitars :?: .....
That would not be possible, one cannot have a guitar adapted to two scales, it's one or the other, the fret locations as well as hardware location don't work in varying scales on one neck/ body.

What I also meant was converting a 25.5 scale set up to a 24.75 set up.....Cannot be done accurately since all of the measurements are different.


According to the Stew Mac Calculator.....

@ a 25.5 scale vrs 24.75
1st fret......1.431 to 1.389
5th fret...... 6.397 to 6.208
12th fret... 12.750 to 12.375
22nd fret... 18.344 to 17.805

The above is measured from the nut and all the other fret measurements also differ from scale to scale.
In addition the bridge on the 25.5 is of course at 25.5...But the bridge for the 24.75 is at 24.507 which is the outermost travel the saddles may ( have to be at ) and that is at max and there will possibly be issues with high E which will not travel far enough towrds the nut.

In all scenario's, the measurements are different and you absolutely need to be able to move the saddles either fore or aft from their midpoint bridge location to ensure an accurate intonation.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, the calculations of fret placement dictate separate locations from one neck to the other and also for the bridge..... :shock: :?:

One would build a guitar to be balanced in the long run, that takes into consideration every aspect of the guitar not just scale length...

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:32 am
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Quote:
What do you mean by multiple scale guitars

Try this: MultipleScaleGuitar

Quote:
What I also meant was converting a 25.5 scale set up to a 24.75 set up.....Cannot be done accurately since all of the measurements are different.

Aaaaaaaaaargh.
It's been done. It's been done with a conversion neck: all of the relevant neck measurements/positions are where they should be according to the new, shorter scale. That's what conversion neck means:
Quote:
Fender did it themselves with the Mustang, of course - both 22 1/4" and 24" scale were available, only difference being the necks


BTW, so that noone gets the wrong impression of my answers to this topic: I have only respect for Mr. Eldred, as well as for other Fender gurus.

Otherwise: Man will never fly! It's not possible! may now be my last comment on this subject.


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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:18 pm
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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:35 pm
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Here's my take on this:
Can you change the scale of a guitar simply by changing the neck to a neck that has been calculated and compensated for the new scale length without changing any parts on the body of the guitar and will the result be functional?
Yes, I believe it's possible.
Will the position of the pickups and bridge on the reconfigured guitar be at the optimum placement when compared to a guitar that was designed for the new scale from the beginning?
Very possibly not, but the result would be usable, just different.

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:32 pm
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Drew365 wrote:
Here's my take on this:
Can you change the scale of a guitar simply by changing the neck to a neck that has been calculated and compensated for the new scale length without changing any parts on the body of the guitar and will the result be functional?
Yes, I believe it's possible.
Will the position of the pickups and bridge on the reconfigured guitar be at the optimum placement when compared to a guitar that was designed for the new scale from the beginning?
Very possibly not, but the result would be usable, just different.


That's exactly right about the pickups. The Tele I fitted the conversion neck to definitely sounded slightly different in the neck position, bridge position was pretty much unchanged tonally. I actually rather liked the change in neck pickup tone, really seemed to suddenly have a bit more depth to it.

The bloke is still gigging with it several nights a week as his main guitar in a very professional band, so I'm guessing it all works for him. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:20 am
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Drew365 wrote:
Here's my take on this:
Can you change the scale of a guitar simply by changing the neck to a neck that has been calculated and compensated for the new scale length without changing any parts on the body of the guitar and will the result be functional?
Yes, I believe it's possible.
Will the position of the pickups and bridge on the reconfigured guitar be at the optimum placement when compared to a guitar that was designed for the new scale from the beginning?
Very possibly not, but the result would be usable, just different.

If you want Eldred's take on this, you'll find it in the thread I referred to on page 1 previous. I suppose you can assume that he doesn't know what he's talking about but might as well say the same for Dr. Oz and cardiothoracic surgery.

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:08 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
Drew365 wrote:
Here's my take on this:
Can you change the scale of a guitar simply by changing the neck to a neck that has been calculated and compensated for the new scale length without changing any parts on the body of the guitar and will the result be functional?
Yes, I believe it's possible.
Will the position of the pickups and bridge on the reconfigured guitar be at the optimum placement when compared to a guitar that was designed for the new scale from the beginning?
Very possibly not, but the result would be usable, just different.

If you want Eldred's take on this, you'll find it in the thread I referred to on page 1 previous. I suppose you can assume that he doesn't know what he's talking about but might as well say the same for Dr. Oz and cardiothoracic surgery.


I don't have the time to read the ME posts, so my opinion has nothing to do with anything he's said and doesn't infer he is wrong. I just feel it can be done and would be usable. Would it be good enough for a major manufacturer like Fender to put out, possibly not.

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:06 am
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[quote="Drew365]I don't have the time to read the ME posts, so my opinion has nothing to do with anything he's said and doesn't infer he is wrong. I just feel it can be done and would be usable. Would it be good enough for a major manufacturer like Fender to put out, possibly not.[/quote]
I indicated the reference in that it was current and germane to the present thread, should anyone be interested in pursuing the lines of thought therein. Things got a bit dicey at times, unfortunately. Mike dealt with the particulars from the point of view of how the Custom Shop would have to manage such an affair to yield the quality product their standards dictate. Tonal wise everything would have to be spot on and nothing less.

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:10 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
[quote="Drew365]I don't have the time to read the ME posts, so my opinion has nothing to do with anything he's said and doesn't infer he is wrong. I just feel it can be done and would be usable. Would it be good enough for a major manufacturer like Fender to put out, possibly not.[/quote]

I indicated the reference in that it was current and germane to the present thread, should anyone be interested in pursuing the lines of thought therein. Things got a bit dicey at times, unfortunately. Mike dealt with the particulars from the point of view of how the Custom Shop would have to manage such an affair to yield the quality product their standards dictate. He made it understood why everything would have to be spot on, not just usable, which dictated the high production cost for the project put to the question by the OP.[/quote][/quote]

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:43 am
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Well now, this is all very interesting. I've studied this thread and the one on Mike Eldred's forum carefully - here it is for anyone interested:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75552

It's perfectly clear that people are talking about two different approaches to positioning the scale length, and that's where the crossed-purposes are coming from.

Mike is presuming that you start with the butt end of a Fender neck heel in a fixed position. In that case, if you reduce the scale length you have to move both the nut and the bridge towards that inbetween point and, as he says, everything else has to change; the pickup positions, the pickguard and so forth.

However, what Warmoth do is treat the bridge as the fixed position. Then, if you reduce the scale length you are simply moving the nut and all the frets towards the bridge by the appropriate ratio. With their "conversion" necks the butt end of the neck stays in the same place in relation to the bridge but the fingerboard effectively slides over it towards the tail, which means you have a fingerboard overhang, just like the 22nd fret overhang on a Fender, but more so. With this type of construction you can have a perfectly intonated 24.75 neck on a regular Strat body, but you probably can't have a 22nd fret as it would collide with the neck pickup.

Also, fitting a Warmoth conversion neck to a normal Strat body the positions of the pickups in relation to the scale length would change slightly. In particular, the neck pickup would no longer be at exactly the double-ocatve positon, the way Leo Fender originally designed it. People get a little over-excited by the importance of that: the neck pickup only coincides with that "node" when the string is played open or fretted at the 12th, and any interesting harmonic properties disappear as soon as you fret it elsewhere.

Anyway. Two things I particularly liked about Mike's contributions on that other thread. One was what he said about the different approaches of various manufacturers:
Mike Eldred - Fender wrote:
All good. Lots of choices out there.

Absolutely right! Plenty of possibilities.

The other was the photo of that neck carving jig:

Image

Ah-ha! Now that presses MY button! :D

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:08 am
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Sermon on The Mount. Can't get any higher authority than that coming from our resident 'artiste extraordinaire'. If there are any doubts, there's a thread you haven't read yet, and probably should have.:wink:

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:13 am
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Ceri wrote:

Mike is presuming that you start with the butt end of a Fender neck heel in a fixed position.


bingo!
Quote:
However, what Warmoth do is treat the bridge as the fixed position.

exactly!!
Quote:
the neck pickup only coincides with that "node" when the string is played open or fretted at the 12th, and any interesting harmonic properties disappear as soon as you fret it elsewhere.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: can i change mim strat scale by buying new neck?
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:08 am
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mhowell wrote:
Ceri wrote:

Mike is presuming that you start with the butt end of a Fender neck heel in a fixed position.


bingo!
Quote:
However, what Warmoth do is treat the bridge as the fixed position.

exactly!!
Quote:
the neck pickup only coincides with that "node" when the string is played open or fretted at the 12th, and any interesting harmonic properties disappear as soon as you fret it elsewhere.

Cheers - C

Ceri moves to the head of the class!

Ahem!!! Ceri never left it :!: 8)

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