It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:23 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Post subject:
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:00 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:28 pm
Posts: 1956
Perhaps a bit off topic but I feel that the tremolo block, and how it mates with the bridge plate, can make all the difference in the world!


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject:
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:19 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:16 am
Posts: 9
Not that I'm trying to be a pain, but all this talk about the wood of an electric guitar having anything to do with it's sound is absurd!

Especially when referring to magnetic pickups. They are magnetic transducers, NOT microphones and have no moving parts that can sense vibrations. The steel string disturbs the magnetic field created by the pickups thus sending an electrical signal through the wiring, potentiometers, effect electronics(if used) then on to the amp to be amplified. Pickups cannot transmit acoustical vibrations. Pickups are less like a microphone/speaker and more like an electrical motor/generator.

If you want to hear the extent at which the wood has any effect in sound output turn off your amp, play your guitar and listen. Thats it, you're hearing acoustical vibrations. Now listen to how much of what you hear is related to the steel strings and the wood. Try and listen for the sound of wood. now overlay that on what your amp puts out. You can't even hear it (solid body) at high volumes (you rockers). At low volumes you may hear hollow or semi hollow bodies acoustically, but crank it up and it disappears.

The differences between sounds of solid body guitars are solely related to the varying types of pickups, pickup placement, number of pickups, types of strings, tautness of strings and length of strings. In other words it's all pickups and strings. The wood only servers to insulate(magnetically) the strings from the pickups and rigidly position the strings over the pickups.

So do not consider the type of fretboard on a solid body electric with magnetic pickups as related to the sound output. Feel, looks, or other preference (conservation) are all that should be taken into consideration.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:06 pm
Offline
Roadie
Roadie
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:14 am
Posts: 237
Location: Calhan, CO
Playing devil's advocate here (I have a fiddle of gold if you win). ;)

Knowing a bit about musical acoustics (hey, I read too), it is entirely reasonable that the vibration of the wood by the strings feeds back into the vibration of the strings (as I said: via sympathetic vibrations) which applies the tone of the mass of the guitar (the body mainly) to the strings. This is called tonal quality or timber.

That sympathetic vibration is obviously going to be picked up by the pick ups as it is part of the string vibrating through the magnetic field - ay?

Remember Newton's third law: Never drink two kinds of beer together. Oh... For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When strings vibrate they cannot possibly do it in isolation from everything. Some of it vibrates the air. A lot of it, since the strings are contacting the guitar at possibly four points (bridge, fretted note, nut, tuner), is transmitted into the guitar. And to take Newton into the 21st century, it is well-known that systems locked together transfer energy back and forth (giving off some as heat from friction, etc.). This is what causes feedback, enharmonic motion, sympathetic vibrations, and chaotic systems (I read some more).

Personally, I don't think it has as much impact as some seem to think or as much as it would have for an acoustic instrument (or one with a vibrating chamber). But it definitely has *some* impact on sustain and general tone by way of this round about feedback system.

Robert


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:47 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:16 am
Posts: 9
Kuroyume wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here (I have a fiddle of gold if you win). ;)

Knowing a bit about musical acoustics (hey, I read too), it is entirely reasonable that the vibration of the wood by the strings feeds back into the vibration of the strings (as I said: via sympathetic vibrations) which applies the tone of the mass of the guitar (the body mainly) to the strings. This is called tonal quality or timber.

That sympathetic vibration is obviously going to be picked up by the pick ups as it is part of the string vibrating through the magnetic field - ay?

Remember Newton's third law: Never drink two kinds of beer together. Oh... For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When strings vibrate they cannot possibly do it in isolation from everything. Some of it vibrates the air. A lot of it, since the strings are contacting the guitar at possibly four points (bridge, fretted note, nut, tuner), is transmitted into the guitar. And to take Newton into the 21st century, it is well-known that systems locked together transfer energy back and forth (giving off some as heat from friction, etc.). This is what causes feedback, enharmonic motion, sympathetic vibrations, and chaotic systems (I read some more).

Personally, I don't think it has as much impact as some seem to think or as much as it would have for an acoustic instrument (or one with a vibrating chamber). But it definitely has *some* impact on sustain and general tone by way of this round about feedback system.

Robert


I'm with you and I agree 100%, that it is in fact "negligible."

After all, lets consider that a fretboard is a very small percentage of the mass of the neck. In addition the glue (bonding fretboard to neck) and type would have to be considered. Truss rod type, material, length, current tension, rod cavity volume, connection to body type, size placement and material of those fret marking dots birds etc)(and the list goes on forever) all differ from guitar to guitar and would all have to be considered with respect to acoustical transmission in the various media and the effects (Refraction, Absorption, Scattering and Reflection) at their boundaries as per physics, in order to even come close to being able to make a blanket statement that one particular fretboard wood would sound consistently the same as opposed to another. Give me a break!

And lets not forget the variance in wood grain from one cut to another.

The following wood hardness values are only averages:

Maple, Domestic = 1450
Rosewood, Bolivian = 1780
Rosewood, Asian = 2170
Rosewood, Honduran = 2200

Note: Hardness is in lbs. per square inch "Janka hardness test."

So which variety rosewood is your fretboard made from? Each would sound different right. Yes I can hear Honduran over Bolivian any day.

How much variance in density are we talking about anyway?

I believe that the effect would be more like blowing on your strings.

So I believe it''s definitely better to play in a vacuum to reduce added sonic overtone created by a breeze.

NEGLIGIBLE!!!


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:59 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:43 am
Posts: 26
Location: Nooo Yawk
I have both. Sometimes I swear the maple is smoother and allows for smoother bends. Then I play my rosewood and feel a greater control for the same bends...I like 'em both for different reasons, and after 5 minutes, I'm cruising. How's that?!!


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:17 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
FrogRock wrote:
Kuroyume wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here (I have a fiddle of gold if you win). ;)

Knowing a bit about musical acoustics (hey, I read too), it is entirely reasonable that the vibration of the wood by the strings feeds back into the vibration of the strings (as I said: via sympathetic vibrations) which applies the tone of the mass of the guitar (the body mainly) to the strings. This is called tonal quality or timber.

That sympathetic vibration is obviously going to be picked up by the pick ups as it is part of the string vibrating through the magnetic field - ay?

Remember Newton's third law: Never drink two kinds of beer together. Oh... For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When strings vibrate they cannot possibly do it in isolation from everything. Some of it vibrates the air. A lot of it, since the strings are contacting the guitar at possibly four points (bridge, fretted note, nut, tuner), is transmitted into the guitar. And to take Newton into the 21st century, it is well-known that systems locked together transfer energy back and forth (giving off some as heat from friction, etc.). This is what causes feedback, enharmonic motion, sympathetic vibrations, and chaotic systems (I read some more).

Personally, I don't think it has as much impact as some seem to think or as much as it would have for an acoustic instrument (or one with a vibrating chamber). But it definitely has *some* impact on sustain and general tone by way of this round about feedback system.

Robert


I'm with you and I agree 100%, that it is in fact "negligible."

After all, lets consider that a fretboard is a very small percentage of the mass of the neck. In addition the glue (bonding fretboard to neck) and type would have to be considered. Truss rod type, material, length, current tension, rod cavity volume, connection to body type, size placement and material of those fret marking dots birds etc)(and the list goes on forever) all differ from guitar to guitar and would all have to be considered with respect to acoustical transmission in the various media and the effects (Refraction, Absorption, Scattering and Reflection) at their boundaries as per physics, in order to even come close to being able to make a blanket statement that one particular fretboard wood would sound consistently the same as opposed to another. Give me a break!

And lets not forget the variance in wood grain from one cut to another.

The following wood hardness values are only averages:

Maple, Domestic = 1450
Rosewood, Bolivian = 1780
Rosewood, Asian = 2170
Rosewood, Honduran = 2200

Note: Hardness is in lbs. per square inch "Janka hardness test."

So which variety rosewood is your fretboard made from? Each would sound different right. Yes I can hear Honduran over Bolivian any day.

How much variance in density are we talking about anyway?

I believe that the effect would be more like blowing on your strings.

So I believe it''s definitely better to play in a vacuum to reduce added sonic overtone created by a breeze.

NEGLIGIBLE!!!



I'll take my guidance from the people at Warmoth when it comes to the issue of tone woods, thank you.

Fortunately we are not discussing any serious matters such as brain tumors. Some of the expert opinion coming forth is scary.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Maple over Rosewood
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:04 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:41 am
Posts: 6
I personally think that the Maple fretboard is smoother, and playing things such as warm up riffs, solos, and just plain old songs are easier to play. But the decision is up to you personal preference, do you like a dark wooded fret board, or a whiter one either way your guitar will sound awesome.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:16 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:04 am
Posts: 464
Location: Hungary
Thanks I lerning so mutch :wink:


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:46 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
stoni wrote:
Thanks I lerning so mutch :wink:


Stoni: Did you ever identify the guitar you purchased????


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:24 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:16 am
Posts: 9
A wise man trusts a professor, over a salesman, as his livelihood doesn't necessarily depend upon your belief.

You got to worry about:

.com(definitely)
.net(probably)
.gov(at least do hippies for sure)
.org(depending)

But I never worry about:

.edu

I just compare many samplings then take the average (current human consensus {knowledge} [probability]) Of course it does help if you understand it instead of just reciting it.

Maple or Rosewood? Consider what you'll gain philosophically, after all that's the drive that makes the genuine a true star. Rock on!


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:01 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:16 am
Posts: 9
Kuroyume wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here (I have a fiddle of gold if you win). ;)

Knowing a bit about musical acoustics (hey, I read too), it is entirely reasonable that the vibration of the wood by the strings feeds back into the vibration of the strings (as I said: via sympathetic vibrations) which applies the tone of the mass of the guitar (the body mainly) to the strings. This is called tonal quality or timber.

That sympathetic vibration is obviously going to be picked up by the pick ups as it is part of the string vibrating through the magnetic field - ay?

Remember Newton's third law: Never drink two kinds of beer together. Oh... For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When strings vibrate they cannot possibly do it in isolation from everything. Some of it vibrates the air. A lot of it, since the strings are contacting the guitar at possibly four points (bridge, fretted note, nut, tuner), is transmitted into the guitar. And to take Newton into the 21st century, it is well-known that systems locked together transfer energy back and forth (giving off some as heat from friction, etc.). This is what causes feedback, enharmonic motion, sympathetic vibrations, and chaotic systems (I read some more).

Personally, I don't think it has as much impact as some seem to think or as much as it would have for an acoustic instrument (or one with a vibrating chamber). But it definitely has *some* impact on sustain and general tone by way of this round about feedback system.

Robert


Kuroyume, you sound like an intelligent individual. I was wondering; considering your statement on "sympathetic vibration" if you could tell me how you thought the vibration of the fretboard would transmit it's particular resonance to the strings considering that it's connected to the neck with glue and that the neck is both connected to the strings via the nut and via the bridge through the body/neck union. Of course you'll have to consider the densities of the various materials along the transmission path (their effect with regards to transmission, reflection, diffraction and refraction.

I take it, that what you're saying is, that the strings vibration causes the fretboard to vibrate via a transmission path and then feeding back through the same transmission path to the strings at a different rate thereby coloring the sound?


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:25 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
FrogRock wrote:
Kuroyume wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here (I have a fiddle of gold if you win). ;)

Knowing a bit about musical acoustics (hey, I read too), it is entirely reasonable that the vibration of the wood by the strings feeds back into the vibration of the strings (as I said: via sympathetic vibrations) which applies the tone of the mass of the guitar (the body mainly) to the strings. This is called tonal quality or timber.

That sympathetic vibration is obviously going to be picked up by the pick ups as it is part of the string vibrating through the magnetic field - ay?

Remember Newton's third law: Never drink two kinds of beer together. Oh... For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When strings vibrate they cannot possibly do it in isolation from everything. Some of it vibrates the air. A lot of it, since the strings are contacting the guitar at possibly four points (bridge, fretted note, nut, tuner), is transmitted into the guitar. And to take Newton into the 21st century, it is well-known that systems locked together transfer energy back and forth (giving off some as heat from friction, etc.). This is what causes feedback, enharmonic motion, sympathetic vibrations, and chaotic systems (I read some more).

Personally, I don't think it has as much impact as some seem to think or as much as it would have for an acoustic instrument (or one with a vibrating chamber). But it definitely has *some* impact on sustain and general tone by way of this round about feedback system.

Robert


Kuroyume, you sound like an intelligent individual. I was wondering; considering your statement on "sympathetic vibration" if you could tell me how you thought the vibration of the fretboard would transmit it's particular resonance to the strings considering that it's connected to the neck with glue and that the neck is both connected to the strings via the nut and via the bridge through the body/neck union. Of course you'll have to consider the densities of the various materials along the transmission path (their effect with regards to transmission, reflection, diffraction and refraction.

I take it, that what you're saying is, that the strings vibration causes the fretboard to vibrate via a transmission path and then feeding back through the same transmission path to the strings at a different rate thereby coloring the sound?


Put together simply and by example: Eric Clapton preferred a maple necked Stratocaster with a stoppedl trem block and 5 springs. He did not feel that a maple-neck, hardtailed Stratocaster yielded the same sound.
Reconcile that with the above and you have one legendary rocker's view of the question.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:08 pm
Offline
Roadie
Roadie
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:14 am
Posts: 237
Location: Calhan, CO
FrogRock wrote:
Kuroyume, you sound like an intelligent individual. I was wondering; considering your statement on "sympathetic vibration" if you could tell me how you thought the vibration of the fretboard would transmit it's particular resonance to the strings considering that it's connected to the neck with glue and that the neck is both connected to the strings via the nut and via the bridge through the body/neck union. Of course you'll have to consider the densities of the various materials along the transmission path (their effect with regards to transmission, reflection, diffraction and refraction.

I take it, that what you're saying is, that the strings vibration causes the fretboard to vibrate via a transmission path and then feeding back through the same transmission path to the strings at a different rate thereby coloring the sound?


Well, I was talking about the entire guitar resonating and sympathetically vibrating. If you see my previous posts in this topic, I don't think that the neck imparts enough of the total here to be noticeably colorful (i.e.: nearly negligible). As for the fretboard - negligible altogether (my guestimate was maybe a maximum of 1% impart).

Yes, the strings vibrate which cause the rest of the guitar to vibrate. Since the strings are attached to the guitar, this transmission of energy goes back and forth between the strings and the rest of the guitar causing the instrumental timber. As with you, I don't think even this is as pronounced as some people suggest when discussing solid-body electric guitars using magnetic transducers (i.e.: pickups).

Some might note that the guitar is much heavier than a string and thus the energy transmitted back to the string would be, to be technical, 'a whole lot'. ;) But that ignores absorption, refraction, reflection, and dispersion of the vibrational energy in the guitar elements (as well as some lost to heat in the vibratory process). And the strings are under tension as well as attached at points (not areas). The tension will require more energetic vibrations to transmit from the guitar *AND* it is more difficult to transmit the energy at these fixed points than, say, if it were a hollow-body guitar pushing amplified air to the non-fixed length of the string.

A simple (and readily available since we probably all have guitars within reach) example here is to pick the string right near the bridge point where the string hits the saddle. Wow - not much there and it takes a lot more force to get even a reasonable vibration. This is because the tension of the string and friction at the point come into play (as well as some other physics properties like moment of force). How does the energetic vibration of the guitar even get into the string, you ask? Part of it is the entire guitar is vibrating in ways that can be transmitted along the length (think about the guitar shaking laterally in both directions to its length). That is a physical impartation to the strings (less little vibrations and more whole system vibrations). Some of it is caused by subsystem vibrations, including the pickups vibrating due to their attachment ot the wood (which will very slightly alter the cross-section of the pickup's magnetic field through which the string vibrates).

I don't think the entire guitar has no impact on timber even though most of the sound is electromagnetic - there is still a mechanical part to the process nonetheless. But to those that say that a maple vs. rosewood vs. ebony fretboard has noticeable effect are deluding themselves.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:53 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:58 am
Posts: 475
Location: Oklahoma
It depends on what feel do you like is it the rosewood feel or maple.
theres not really a difference in tone but in feel.
For me i like rosewood. I think it looks better and it feel is more comfertable to me. :D


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Rosewood vs. Maple
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:33 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:16 am
Posts: 9
bojangles wrote:
I plan on purchasing a fender american standard strat and I was wondering if someone could please inform me on the differences between the maple fretboards compared to the rosewood fretboards. Thanks


Well Mr. Bojangles (he he) I guess it could be Mrs.? So is that like not politically correct for me to assume it's Mr. Or was it just that my funny(as easy as it was) superseded my need for political correctness?

Well we haven't heard from you since your original post. I hope all this helps, as indeed that was my intentions. I really don't want you to buy any swamp land.

One more thing to take note of as far as my sampling goes. Every fretboard I've had up until now has been rosewood (6 total). My new (only had it for a week) Strat is my first maple fretboard ever.

Anyway all the rosewood fretboards I've owned up till now has an open grain pattern look and feel. Which is to say that they're look and feel is obviously porous. When viewed closely you can see little valleys which are voids in the grain pattern. It's much like oak in this respect, however oaks valleys are a lot longer and wider. The only way to get rid of them is to use an application of sanding sealer whose purpose is just that, which is to fill up the voids in wood for a smooth (glass-like) surface. My maple fretboard is smooth as a babies bottom. No obvious signs of porosity via the human eye. Thats because Maple doesn't have this type grain pattern. I guess the reason guitar makers seem not to use sanding sealer is to maintain the woods natural state.

To me it seems as though Maple is much faster. Because I know that in fact, in this particular case, smooth equals less friction. This is primarily because I sweat profusely and then there's my oil glands that add to the mix. In addition I use a product called Finger-ease (guitar string lubricant). Because I've found it helps me build up my callouses much quicker after a long time of not playing, and it also serves to protect my strings from corrosion (rust). And of course it aids in my slides.

Anyway, I liken it to hydroplaning in your car. The last thing you want when driving in the rain are slicks (tires with no treads). Because you'd have no traction (friction) and would slide all over the place. In this case thats exactly what I want, less friction(speed).

Keep in mind that this is my take and may be subject to bias due to my knowledge of the aforementioned. As with every human I've ever met (myself included) things of this nature tend to be subjective.

So my advise to you is to take all this with a grain of salt and test it at your local musical instrument store.

Good luck!


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: