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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:43 pm
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I have an '88 strat plus with the wilkinson roller nut and locking tuners. After reading this thread I decided to test it. So I plugged in and tuned it up. Then I dumped the whammy bar a few times. I can also pull it up a little bit so I really bounced it around.

After doing that I checked the tuning and every string was SHARP!!

That didn't make sense so I tried it two more times. It went sharp every time!

That really wasn't what I expected so I tried the same test with my '89 standard strat. It's stock hardware, regular nut, non-locking tuners. It did the exact same thing!

Trust me, I know how to use a tuner. I know sharp from flat.

Four test with two guitars and it consistently went sharp with heavy whammy use.

What's really disappointing is that the strat plus performed no better than the standard strat.

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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:09 pm
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Spring tension/memory and friction at the nut.

I must admit that I very rarely dive bomb and only ever give my EJ's whammy bar a work out when I play a Pink Floyd medley (or should that be Meddle-ley).

I suddenly feel old... just realized my vinyl copy of Meddle is 41 years old - come to think of it my CD copy is probably 25 or more years old.


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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:48 am
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mhowell wrote:
I have an '88 strat plus with the wilkinson roller nut and locking tuners. After reading this thread I decided to test it. So I plugged in and tuned it up. Then I dumped the whammy bar a few times. I can also pull it up a little bit so I really bounced it around.

After doing that I checked the tuning and every string was SHARP!!

That didn't make sense so I tried it two more times. It went sharp every time!

That really wasn't what I expected so I tried the same test with my '89 standard strat. It's stock hardware, regular nut, non-locking tuners. It did the exact same thing!

Trust me, I know how to use a tuner. I know sharp from flat.

Four test with two guitars and it consistently went sharp with heavy whammy use.

What's really disappointing is that the strat plus performed no better than the standard strat.


Think about the physics ... When you dive bomb, the strings are loosened and move forward across the nut towards the tuning keys ... When you release from the dive bomb the whammy system pulls back on the strings, but the nut is probably preventing them from slipping back through all the way. The end result is, when the strings don't slide all the way back into original position through the nut, they have more tension in the area between the nut and the saddles and are, thus, higher pitched.

Using nut lube, omitting the use of the string trees and perhaps having the nut slots made slightly larger by a professional luthier may help. Sting binding at the nut is the problem I had and it's definitely cured with the measures i pointed out in my prior posting above.


Last edited by BrianRowland on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:32 pm
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Hi everybody,
Just decided to share my experience. For me it was incredible too why having locking tuners and LSR roller nut which besides have been declared as the outstanding achievements of the guitar industry my guitar getting out of tune after bending. I am an engineer and have a harmful habit to get at the roots of things. I started to dig. All in all I’ve spent my money but no satisfaction from the purchase. Only disappointment!
After e-net surfing I was very amused with solution where the guy manipulates with back springs location - monstrous ignorance, don’t believe him. Also I don’t understand people who recommend to block tremolo. The tremolo is the reason why I've purchased strat. I love play with tremolo and be free to move arm up and down...
So in terms of engineering Fender Deluxe tremolo initially has a bad design. But Fenders don’t want to admit it sticking to old traditions IMHO. Looking at the deluxe tremolo picture you can see that there is an inflection point just after the string comes out of the tremolo block.
Image
Due to quite acute angle there is a high contact pressure in this area and the thinner the string the greater the contact pressure. That’s why the phenomenon is more apparent with 123 strings – they are thin. Any lube will not help. It will be squeezed out of the friction zone. It works like a cutting rim. When we do the bend the string is stretched and due to the friction exactly on mentioned place can’t go back to its original condition. Moving tremolo arm down we break this grip between string and tremolo and the guitar getting in tune back.
I was very happy to find tremolo designed by GOTOH. These guys probably thought too much and have designed a wonderful device devoid of technical flaw which Fender has. I replaced deluxe tremolo with this one and forgot about detuning at all.


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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:13 pm
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I have been playing for more than 30 years and I have owned more guitars than I can remember... I bought an Ibanez S series a few years ago and really loved the way it played. You could hit that whammy all day long and it would NEVER come out of tune. The problem for me was my fingers don't stretch quite as far as the they did so the wide neck and and jumbo frets were killing me...

I bought a Clapton Strat a couple of months ago and even though the trem was blocked it wouldn't stay in tune. It was very frustrating especially for my band mates who had to wait for me to tune up between songs! I took it back to the store to return it and the guys says..."Try an American Deluxe" locking tuners never go out of tune... Well I've had it for 2 weeks now and it's the same story. Are you kidding me??

My $400 Ibanez never goes out of tune but this $1,200 plus guitar can't make it for two songs in a row? I've read all the advice... graphite on contact points, better strings, grease the nut.... but seriously why do I have to do this to a guitar that I pay that much for? This one is going back too....

I have a beautiful Les Paul (25/50 model) but I just can't stand up with that thing on my neck all night anymore.... If anyone has any suggestions for thinner neck guitar I would appreciate it... oh yeah, it must stay in tune


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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:38 pm
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raynsac wrote:
I have been playing for more than 30 years and I have owned more guitars than I can remember... I bought an Ibanez S series a few years ago and really loved the way it played. You could hit that whammy all day long and it would NEVER come out of tune. The problem for me was my fingers don't stretch quite as far as the they did so the wide neck and and jumbo frets were killing me...

I bought a Clapton Strat a couple of months ago and even though the trem was blocked it wouldn't stay in tune. It was very frustrating especially for my band mates who had to wait for me to tune up between songs! I took it back to the store to return it and the guys says..."Try an American Deluxe" locking tuners never go out of tune... Well I've had it for 2 weeks now and it's the same story. Are you kidding me??

My $400 Ibanez never goes out of tune but this $1,200 plus guitar can't make it for two songs in a row? I've read all the advice... graphite on contact points, better strings, grease the nut.... but seriously why do I have to do this to a guitar that I pay that much for? This one is going back too....

I have a beautiful Les Paul (25/50 model) but I just can't stand up with that thing on my neck all night anymore.... If anyone has any suggestions for thinner neck guitar I would appreciate it... oh yeah, it must stay in tune


I would recommend that once you take back the guitar, sit and play the guitars in the shop. I mean really play them. Use the whammy bar. I have 2 Fender Stratocasters, a Gibson Les Paul, and a Squire HM III and all of them stay in tune for days. The trick is to have them set up correctly (either by yourself or pay a professional). If you have a tremolo on the guitar, make sure it is balanced. The right amount of tension to put it back into the same place every time you use it. And make sure that you lubricate the contact points. Also check to make sure the nut is cut to fit the strings without binding.

It's honestly a matter to meticulously choosing the right guitar for your playing needs, not what brand does not go out of tune.

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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:57 pm
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I guess my major frustration is why a guitar that costs so much has to be "tuned up" before it plays properly? I have previously owned a MIM 71 Thinline Reissue ($500). No tuning problems out of the box. It just seems that when you buy an instrument that supposed to be of higher quality it should come to you "setup".

Don't get me wrong. I like the way the guitar sounds (the S1 switch is nice), I like the action, I like the feel of the neck but it's just disappointing that I now have invest more money to make it right.


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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:03 pm
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Yeah I went through hell getting a floyd installed on my American Deluxe it had an LSR and the mini floyd. Stayed in tune awesome but no pull up or Brad Gillis Cricket warbble.
I want strats not jacksons.
So now I have 2 more strats that dont have locking trems. I use Tusq nut and Locking tuners. the Highway 1 has a Blade Runner and the new 89 has a 2 point trem.
I am just using locking tuners grease and the stock nut on the 89
Only one that stays in really well is the floyd but even floyds go out if you beat the piss out of them.

When I whammy like Eddie VH or Jimi the King Hendrix on non locking they stay in ok

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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:06 pm
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Its an assembly line guitar by american workers it has the best wood and parts money can buy but its not a custom hand made instrument you would pay 5 grand your gonna have to break it in yourself

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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:09 pm
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it dont have to take more money its got locking tuners and a great bridge sounds like its just a new type of system to you you will learn it. no winds on locking tuners grease that nut up and no float on the trem the sand paper thing he told you is sometimes needed to
its not an lsr hss model right?

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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:56 am
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In my experience there are few factors that cause the strings to go out of tune... New strings that aren't stretched and broken in. Not wrapping the strings up correctly on the tuners. The tremolo springs not broken in or worn out.

My solution... Make sure the strings are stretched out when you install them. I actually wire up my guitar and pull the up on the string halfway between the nut and the bridge just enough to start lifting the guitar off the table. Also when restringing a guitar, I use this method to help avoid the string from slipping:

Image

Last part, I add a fourth spring to make sure the tremolo goes back in place. Another option is to block the tremolo (defeating the purpose) or get a tremsetter.

Image

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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:39 pm
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My opinion is that locking tuners only help with tuning stability where there are no wraps around the tuning post. Because it locks, there is no need to wrap around 1-2times.

The problem lies between the tension between tuners and nut vs. nut and saddles. The LSR or the Wilkinson roller nut try to address these issues, however not as much as they would like.

Ultimately, it also comes down to a professional set-up and taking your guitar to someone who is an expert on balancing trems. I know we can do our own setups, but if you want to to exhaust your avenues, I'd suggest it.

However, a Strat Trem was not designed for heavy use when they were first developed. This is exactly why mr. Floyd rose made is famed bridge / nut setup. He was having the exact same issues as OP and everyone else, and no amount of lubrication helped in either which way. He addressed the issue by clamping the nut and the bridge as this is where the problem lies as I explained above

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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:49 pm
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Well, I'm happy to report... I took the Deluxe back. The store wasn't happy or should I say the salesman. I ended up with a PRS SE Custom 24 (not the same store).

Does it sound the same? No. But the neck is very comfortable for my crooked fingers, the frets are very nice but the best part... It stays in tune! After the strings settled in they hold very nicely. The trem has no effect on the tuning either.

Better news? It was about half the price and I didn't have to pay anyone to "set it up". Still, it's disappointing paying that much for a guitar is no guarantee that it will perform without laying out more cash.

As sort of a side note... My daughter recently won a Fender Squire Strat HSS from work (best sales associate). She doesn't play and gave it to me. I put it away and never played it until.... Until I had all of these problems with my Deluxe. I have to say there was very little difference between the squire and deluxe. Pickups weren't quite as hot and the tuners weren't quite as nice but either they're building these guys really well or the American versions not so good...I'm not sure which. For now I'm saying so long to my dreams of owning a Strat. My last one, which I lost to theft, was a 70's Ash. I paid just over 400.

Out of desperation I broke out my 25/50 Les Paul with intentions of using it with the band. After 30 minutes I remember why I put it away...LOL. It hurts! But it does sound great.

Thanks to everyone who had suggestions on what to do with my guitar...


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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:31 pm
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It's almost always the nut. I have a place I have been bringing my guitars for setups & repairs ever since I found them in the late 80's. These guys are the best. They take a long time though! A few times I have wanted a setup done quickly and have tried a couple other guys. I always ended up getting two setups on those occasions. But my point is that when they are done with a guitar usually I can play a whole set and barely have to tune it at all.


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Post subject: Re: Disappointed in new American Deluxe Stratocaster
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:38 pm
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My Amn Dlx Strat is a few months old. I too found that it would not stay in tune after a few songs. I was initially disappointed too, being this was a birthday present and I had waited many years for it.

I did what others have suggested with a string change and stretching the strings from halfway up the neck. I dropped the stock ball end 9s and changed them to 10s Fender Bullets. Voila! Major improvement for me. I was pleasantly surprised and asked one of the music store's staffers if the 10s could have helped and he said that and even higher gauge could, although there would be other considerations. Other strings may work in a similar fashion. I'm certain many of the other suggestions will be of use. But, now I can have my axe in tune for days, or at the very least for much longer.

Strats are known to go out of tune, but it's the tunes that have become famous because of a Strat that really count.


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