Maple neck vs. Rosewood neck?

Toppscore · **Joined:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am **Posts:** 2337

JACSTRAT wrote:

The older rosewood gets the cooler it starts to look also.

I agree. I feel that the vintage maple necks I have played
begin to have a grayish ware on the fretboard. Looks ugly, IMHO.

Toppscore · **Joined:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am **Posts:** 2337

veryhungrycaterpillar wrote:

Neither. Ebony for me.

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH9o9AvAsCM here is a video of a guy playing a rose wood then maple strat it might help

Excellent find. From this clip, I hear the fundamental being stronger with the maple fretboard. The rosewood fretboard congests the midrange bit with more harmonic content. Depending on where and what he is playing, the different fretboard woods sounded better. Closer to the nut and with the lower pitched strings, the maple sounded much better to my ears. Down the neck and on the higher pitched strings, the rosewood started to have a better sound to my ears.

Just wondering. I'm sure to a fact that everything affects the tone/sounds all of the
way out to the speakers. But, I've wondered about the fretboard and it's contributions
to tone/sound. Seems to me, and please share how wrong I am, but it is the fret
and the bridge saddles that are in contact with the strings. Right?

Yes, I know wood density, bridge density, fret materials, saddle & bridge materials,
all make a difference, but how does the fret board wood "really" affect the tone,
when it is the fret itself that is after the fretboard wood?

Anybody?
or is it just looks? and fretboard wear that make true value of fretboard wood?

Toppscore

CRGuitarMan · **Joined:** Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:46 pm **Posts:** 2041

Toppscore wrote:

I like Rosewood. But, they wear out sooner than Maple.

Excuse me?!

JANKA RATING

WOOD SPECIES (Hardest to Softest)

Ebony - 2350

Mesquite - 2200

Santos Mahogany - 1940

Purpleheart - 1850

Hickory and Pecan - 1780

Rosewood - 1725

African Padauk - 1700

Locust - 1630

Red Pine - 1575

Zebrawood - 1570

True Pine - 1470

Sweet Birch - 1450

Hard / Sugar Maple - 1390

I'm not sure where you get the idea that rosewood "wears out" faster than maple, but considering that rosewood in much harder than maple, that idea seems unlikely at best. I know this is part of The Endless Debate, but since certain facts are known regarding the two species of wood, certain statements must be questioned.

I have never seen a worn-out rosewood fretboard, but I have seen plenty of maple fretboards with nice deep worn spots. I've been playing guitars with maple, rosewood and ebony fretboards for 48 years now - including guitars I have owned for almost that long and I don't have ANY worn-out fretboards.

Can someone who uses 11s on his rosewood fretboard damage that fretboard? I don't doubt that. But I think the same person using 11s on a hard maple fretboard would wear it out sooner, simply due to the fact that maple is softer.

Smokin' Frets · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:33 am **Posts:** 1247

Toppscore wrote:

... but how does the fret board wood "really" affect the tone,
when it is the fret itself that is after the fretboard wood?

It's all a matter of resonance.
Different materials resonate differently and have an effect on the "coloration" of the sound.
Even though Strats are solid body without resonance chambers (like acoustics or semi acoustics) the resonance of the whole guitar has an influence on the overall sound, just like many, many other factors (Picks, strings, playing style, attack, body wood, pickups.....)

Fact is: the fretboard wood does have an influence on the sound characteristics but it's very minor. Other factors are way more recognizeable: the player himself, pickups, amp and cabinet IMHO have the BIGGEST effect on tone. Everything else is minor (but still noticeable), but as it is in life, many, many minor things can sum up to a big difference.

Fretboard wood is "just one ant in the whole ant colony" :wink:

Toppscore · **Joined:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am **Posts:** 2337

CRGuitarMan wrote:

Toppscore wrote:

I like Rosewood. But, they wear out sooner than Maple.

Excuse me?! JANKA RATING WOOD SPECIES (Hardest to Softest)
Ebony - 2350
Mesquite - 2200
Santos Mahogany - 1940
Purpleheart - 1850
Hickory and Pecan - 1780
Rosewood - 1725
African Padauk - 1700
Locust - 1630
Red Pine - 1575
Zebrawood - 1570
True Pine - 1470
Sweet Birch - 1450
Hard / Sugar Maple - 1390
I'm not sure where you get the idea that rosewood "wears out" faster than maple, but considering that rosewood in much harder than maple, that idea seems unlikely at best. I know this is part of The Endless Debate, but since certain facts are known regarding the two species of wood, certain statements must be questioned. I have never seen a worn-out rosewood fretboard, but I have seen plenty of maple fretboards with nice deep worn spots. I've been playing guitars with maple, rosewood and ebony fretboards for 48 years now - including guitars I have owned for almost that long and I don't have ANY worn-out fretboards. Can someone who uses 11s on his rosewood fretboard damage that fretboard? I don't doubt that. But I think the same person using 11s on a hard maple fretboard would wear it out sooner, simply due to the fact that maple is softer.

You'll have to rethink those thoughts and resubscribe to more current Janka Ratings Monthly.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that rosewood "does not wear out" faster than maple, but considering that maple is harder than mahogany, and mahogany is harder than softer rosewood, therefore maple is harder than rosewood. There are many alternative points of view towards the hardness of maple. I have seen worn out rosewood fretboards, down to the layers below.

There are approximately 128 species, most of which are native to Asia, with a number also appearing in Europe, northern Africa, and North America. Only one species, the poorly studied Acer laurinum, is native to the Southern Hemisphere. Most maples are trees growing to 30–145 feet in height. Most species are deciduous, but a few in southern Asia and the Mediterranean region are evergreen. Most are shade-tolerant when young and are often late-successional in ecology; many of the root systems are typically dense and fibrous. A few species, notably Acer cappadocicum, frequently produce root sprouts, which can develop into clonal colonies. Some of the larger maple species have valuable timber, particularly Sugar maple in North America, and Sycamore maple in Europe. Sugar maple wood — often known as "hard maple" — is the wood of choice for bowling pins, bowling alley lanes, pool cue shafts, and butcher's blocks.

There are many maple wood trees to work with. A better selection of maple will
change the Janka ratings to be more favorable towards the maple's hardness.
2012 REVISED JANKA RATINGs
Ebony - 2350
Mesquite - 2200
Maple - 1940(+)
Santos Mahogany - 1940
Purpleheart - 1850
Hickory and Pecan - 1780
Rosewood - 1725

Read the following paragraph very carefully:
Maple is considered a tonewood, or a wood that carries sound waves well, and is used in numerous musical instruments. Maple is harder than Mahogany and has a brighter sound than Mahogany, which is another major tonewood used in instrument manufacturing.

Major note from commenter:
There are 128 species of maple. Many much much harder than rosewood. Maybe, Janka
gave you a weak spoiled maple to compare with rosewood? Try this. Get your Janka
supscription to provide a list of all 128 species of maple and then rate those 128
in order of hardness to softness.

Electric guitar necks are commonly made from maple, having a brighter sound than rosewood. The necks of the Fender Stratocaster and Telecaster were originally an entirely maple one piece neck, but later were also available with rosewood fingerboards. Les Paul desired an all maple guitar, but due to the weight of maple, only the tops of Gibson's Les Paul guitars are made from carved maple, often using quilted or flamed maple tops. Due to its weight, very few solid body guitars are made entirely from maple, but many guitars have maple necks, tops or veneers.

Hope this helps to give an alternative view. Toppscore

References
1.^ Stevens, P. F. (2001 onwards). Angiosperm Phylogeny Website. Version 9, June 2008 [and more or less continuously updated since]. http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/research/APweb/.
2.^ Sunset Western Garden Book, 1995:606–607
3.^ a b c d e f g van Gelderen, C. J. & van Gelderen, D. M. (1999). Maples for Gardens: A Color Encyclopedia
4.^ http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx? ... _id=100167
5.^ a b Gibbs, D. & Chen, Y. (2009) The Red List of Maples Botanic Gardens Conservation International (BGCI) ISBN 978-1-905164-31-8
6.^ Huxley, A., ed. (1992). New RHS Dictionary of Gardening. Macmillan ISBN 0-333-47494-5.
7.^ Classification of maples
8.^ http://www.beetlebusters.info/; http://www.umassgreeninfo.org/fact_shee ... A.html#226
9.^ Phillips, D. H. & Burdekin, D. A. (1992). Diseases of Forest and Ornamental Trees. Macmillan. ISBN 0-333-49493-8.
10.^ D'Cruz, Mark. "Ma-Ke Bonsai Care Guide for Acer buergerianum". Ma-Ke Bonsai. Retrieved 2011-07-05.
11.^ Sam Holman Maple Baseball Bats
12.^ The Illustrated Grading Guide to American Hardwoods
13.^ Wood Terms and Examples
14.^ Joseph Aronson (1965). The encyclopedia of furniture. Random House, Inc.. pp. 300–. ISBN 978-0-517-03735-5. Retrieved 8 September 2010.
15.^ Geoff Nicholls; Tony Bacon (1 June 1997). The drum book. Hal Leonard Corporation. pp. 54–. ISBN 978-0-87930-476-8. Retrieved 19 October 2010

Toppscore · **Joined:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am **Posts:** 2337

Smokin' Frets wrote:

Toppscore wrote:

... but how does the fret board wood "really" affect the tone,
when it is the fret itself that is after the fretboard wood?

It's all a matter of resonance.
Different materials resonate differently and have an effect on the "coloration" of the sound.
Even though Strats are solid body without resonance chambers (like acoustics or semi acoustics) the resonance of the whole guitar has an influence on the overall sound, just like many, many other factors (Picks, strings, playing style, attack, body wood, pickups.....)

Fact is: the fretboard wood does have an influence on the sound characteristics but it's very minor. Other factors are way more recognizeable: the player himself, pickups, amp and cabinet IMHO have the BIGGEST effect on tone. Everything else is minor (but still noticeable), but as it is in life, many, many minor things can sum up to a big difference.
Fretboard wood is "just one ant in the whole ant colony" :wink:

I agree, Smokin'.
One ant. I agree again. Plus, it is before the fret, so less influential than the fret.
All things make a difference in tone. Including cold windy outdoor gigs vs
warm indoor gigs.

T2Stratman · **Posted:** Mon May 21, 2012 6:21 am

Hey Toppscore...you might want to check your references...the link below shows:

Maple: 1450
Rosewood: 1780

This site was just updated 25 May 2012...doesn't get much more refined than that.

And the reason that Fender went with a Rosewood board was due to complaints of the maple necks wearing out...Not once have I ever heard of that on a fender rosewood board, which is why Leo and Co. chose that wood. If you have photographic evidence of that happening as you say, post it...I believe what I can see, and it is plausable, but I live not too far from Missouri...so Show Me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

CRGuitarMan · **Joined:** Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:46 pm **Posts:** 2041

T2Stratman wrote:

Hey Toppscore...you might want to check your references...the link below shows:

Maple: 1450
Rosewood: 1780

This site was just updated 25 May 2012...doesn't get much more refined than that.

And the reason that Fender went with a Rosewood board was due to complaints of the maple necks wearing out...Not once have I ever heard of that on a fender rosewood board, which is why Leo and Co. chose that wood. If you have photographic evidence of that happening as you say, post it...I believe what I can see, and it is plausable, but I live not too far from Missouri...so Show Me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Bless you, T2! Leo was no dummy! He did everything for a reason.

Toppscore · **Joined:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am **Posts:** 2337

T2Stratman wrote:

Hey Toppscore...you might want to check your references...the link below shows: Maple: 1450 * Rosewood: 1780
This site was just updated 25 May 2012...doesn't get much more refined than that.
And the reason that Fender went with a Rosewood board was due to complaints of the maple necks wearing out...Not once have I ever heard of that on a fender rosewood board, which is why Leo and Co. chose that wood. If you have photographic evidence of that happening as you say, post it...I believe what I can see, and it is plausable, but I live not too far from Missouri...so Show Me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Read the following paragraph very carefully:
Maple is considered a tonewood, or a wood that carries sound waves well, and is used in numerous musical instruments. Maple is harder than Mahogany and has a brighter sound than Mahogany, which is another major tonewood used in instrument manufacturing.

I see where you are going with that, T2. I put up plenty of references.

But, the same sources CLEARLY STATES:
Maple is harder than Mahogany and has a brighter sound than Mahogany
This is from the same source page you got your rebuttle quote!
Are you wrong? Am I wrong? Who cares? There are more opinions and
true life experiences than you will ever know or can imagine beyond
the minuscule amout of maple and rosewood necks you have seen.

Interestingly, my statement was:
"I like Rosewood. But, they wear out sooner than Maple."
T2. How do you know my statement to be an "Excuse Me?! lie or wrong?
Simply, you cannot know.

So, before correcting someone, please check ALL of the SOURCES instead of
the one that may point towards your way. Again, ask Janka to measure all
128 species of maple and see that 127 are actually harder than all rosewoods.

Also, there's a much better and nicer way to "put-down"
my comment that maple is harder than rosewood . . . .

You could have KINDLY stated that "there MAY be some rosewoods that
are harder than SOME maple wood. In fact, I have this Janka chart that
discusses one of the 128 species of maple. Maybe the Janka report is not
indicative of the results for the other 127 species of maple wood. At least
that is something to consider. Thanks for listening to an alternative view. T2"

**** NOTE.
I just ran into this the other day. Some people have been around guitars
or amps for 30-50 years (not discussing you, T2), and just because they
have seen 10 or 100 or 1000 of something, they tend (again, not discussing T2)
to come across as if they've seen it all, know it all, been there - done that,
that their word is the end all, that they are King God of the subject. etc.
In fact some of these people are so overwhelmed with their own belief in
themselves, that they ACTUALLY BELIEVE THEIR OWN WORDS! Amazing.
There is no inquiry! There is no possibility! There are no exceptions!
Very narrow minded.

Then, when someone (me) presents different possibilities or thoughts or ideas
or facts that may be different than what the king god believes, king god just
has to try to slam it back. Instead of reintroducing the phrase "IMHO" or
"I could be mistaken", of "I have seen some, but not all", there is no possibility.

telemaster23 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:40 pm **Posts:** 8

Sound is Subjective and it's also about feel. Play as many necks as you can. Eventually you will find that diamond in the rough. I own both because there are days when one sounds better than the other all the time!

Toppscore · **Joined:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am **Posts:** 2337

telemaster23 wrote:

Sound is Subjective and it's also about feel. Play as many necks as you can. Eventually you will find that diamond in the rough. I own both because there are days when one sounds better than the other all the time!

Thanks, Telemaster.
Some discussions are subjective, One should be allowed to express opinions without
judgement. We as a group need to be cautious how we engaged towards differences
of opinion. I enjoy the exceptions. Fender History is full of exceptions towards amps,
guitars, production inconsistences, using different parts & components, etc.
Toppscore

Nobody knows it ALL.

NEVER SAY NEVER. ALWAYS NEVER SAY ALWAYS

Smokin' Frets · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:33 am **Posts:** 1247

Well, I don't agree with the last point.
Yes, feel has a big influence on "liking" but not on the basic sound.

Maple definitely sounds brighter but there's moments when you simply love the warmer rosewood sound better. I have those moments, too. That's why I own and love both!

I just don't believe that - whatever mood you're in - rosewood all of a sudden sounds brighter than maple with the same amp settings.

It might happen that all of a sudden you DON'T LIKE the sound, that happens to mee as well but rosewood will always sound warmer (given that you use the same setup and equipment with equal settings).

That's what I love about guitars!!!
There's always the right guitar for your present mood because every guitar has its own soul.
If you own just one guitar: well ..... you're stuck :wink:

Toppscore · **Joined:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am **Posts:** 2337

Smokin' Frets wrote:

Well, I don't agree with the last point. Yes, feel has a big influence on "liking" but not on the basic sound. Maple definitely sounds brighter but there's moments when you simply love the warmer rosewood sound better. I have those moments, too. That's why I own and love both! I just don't believe that - whatever mood you're in - rosewood all of a sudden sounds brighter than maple with the same amp settings. It might happen that all of a sudden you DON'T LIKE the sound, that happens to mee as well but rosewood will always sound warmer (given that you use the same setup and equipment with equal settings). That's what I love about guitars!!! There's always the right guitar for your present mood because every guitar has its own soul. If you own just one guitar: well ..... you're stuck :wink:

Smokin'. I have eight guitars, mostly rosewood because of looks,
older and some current maple necks, also.

I have never AB'd them, but I just cannot tell. Never thought about it.
Thinking more into maple vs rosewood, everything changes when trying
to figure it out, and I have yet to do the test.

Because, my maple or rosewood axes may have bone or brass nuts,
hardtail-Bigsby-Fender Tremolo bridges, 8s 9s 10s or 11s strings, locking tuners or not,
different custom potentiometers, 10' 15' 20' monster or off-brand guitar cords,
some axes have humbuckers, humbuckers & single coils and SSS,
some axes have push/pull, some have in-phase/out-of-phase switches,
one has veritone switching, and different color guitar straps, etc etc etc.

So, there is absolutely no way I can tell within my eight guitars
which is different = rosewood or maple tones/sounds.

Guess the only way to test is to own two identical Strats
with different fretboards. What do you think?

Toppscore

JACSTRAT · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2012 1:33 pm

Maple definitely sounds brighter but there's moments when you simply love the warmer rosewood sound better. I have those moments, too. That's why I own and love both!

That's how I feel as well! I view it silly to try to make one appear superior to the other. This is as dumb as trying to say a Strat is better than a Les Paul. They are both great and, let's face it, they both have pros and cons. I play alot on maple but, when I pick up my Mustang, the warmer sounding rosewood is an old friend saying, "Back again huh, Pal?"

Smokin' Frets · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:33 am **Posts:** 1247

Toppscore wrote:

Because, my maple or rosewood axes may have bone or brass nuts,
hardtail-Bigsby-Fender Tremolo bridges, 8s 9s 10s or 11s strings, locking tuners or not,
different custom potentiometers, 10' 15' 20' monster or off-brand guitar cords,
some axes have humbuckers, humbuckers & single coils and SSS,
some axes have push/pull, some have in-phase/out-of-phase switches,
one has veritone switching, and different color guitar straps, etc etc etc.

So, there is absolutely no way I can tell within my eight guitars
which is different = rosewood or maple tones/sounds.

Guess the only way to test is to own two identical Strats
with different fretboards. What do you think?

Toppscore

Absolutely right! In fact, and that's what I wrote in one of my first posts in this thread, you could ONLY OBJECTIVELY compare both woods, if you'd play the maple neck, record it, then route it down and attach a rosewood fingerboard.
Nobody would do that just for a test.

So, since this is no option, the only way to compare them is to play to Strats with exactly the same features, except the fingerboard or swap necks.
It will lead to a slightly different result in tone, every guitar has it's own "soul" but it would make it at least compareable up to a certain point.

It's really hard to compare both, especially since even the knowledge about which wood is on your neck MIGHT(!) have an influence on your playing style (talk about mood etc...).

All I can say from my point of view is: there's been measurements with high class electronic equipment and the say maple sounds brighter.
I personally tested both even many years before, when I didn't know much about guitar theory and since I was looking for a warm tone ONLY during that time, I ALWAYS ended up with rosewood.
Today, after more than 25 years of playing and after having played LOTS of different guitars, I personally can confirm that I NEVER had a maple neck guitar in my hand which sounded warmer than rosewood neck guitars TO ME(!).

So I DARE to say: yes, maple definitely sounds brighter.
I DO NOT DARE to say that I might not have been tricked by my brain without knowing it :lol:

but i'm very positive that I'm right, ha ha ha.

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