Interestingly enough, an acquaintance just gave me a stack of ols VG magazines ans in one issue, there was a story written by a guy who purchased a very expensive Boutique acoustic guitar and after playing it for a short while, contacted the builder to ask a few questions about his new treasure.

When the builder checked his files, they both discovered that the instrument had been stolen. The new buyer returned the guitar to it's rightful owner and I presume went back to the seller and got his $$$$ back.

Now I'm not a lawyer but it's my opinion that the original owner was then obligated to return any insurance payout to his insurance company, forfeit the property so that the insurer can recoup their payout or make arrangements to buy the guitar back from them at a negotiated price.

I don't believe that a homeowners policy is any different than an Auto policy. Once a claim is paid, the insured item becomes the property of the insurer and if you recover it and don't turn it over, you are liable to be charged with committing insurance fraud.

We'll see what "Malcs" says!

sorry - i keep posting these longish replies - but there is often a fair bit of ground to cover.

@Xhefri - are you same Xhefri (pronounced Jeffrey) who customises strats? If so incredibly cool work you do!! If not - nice to meet you anyway.

I think you make some very valid points there! I would personally want to see proof that everything the guy said happened - actually happened, but if the police had reason to believe the guy had actually stolen the guitar - then I could see why they would arrest him. However, we only have one side of an unverified story, that even if true, has to be exception to the normal rule. It seems a hugely elaborate scam to run by an ex-con; find an ad that shows enough about the guitar, and shows the serial numbers; get all the information you need (make, model, serial number, description of any identifying marks etc), fabricate a fake bill of sale, then contact the police - tell them your guitar has been stolen an is being advertised on craigslist, on the off chance that they will go and take a guitar from a guy who probably (and as in your case did) have proof of good title and give it to you... I'm not saying this is impossible - but it seems entirely too elaborate a ruse to put into play for a few hundred or even a couple of thousand bucks - but you never know these days!

@cnsky54 and mindsok - for the scenario you describe I think, but I'm not sure without researching every jurisdiction and it may differ considerably- the guitar would become the property of the insurance company. Unfortunately, there is very little recourse for you if you have bought stolen goods (even innocently) other than to try and get compensated from the person you bought them from.

if you have made a claim on a guitar through your insurance company and then it turns up, I think there would be scope to approach your insurance company and negotiate a buy-back from them - but I don't see anything in law that gives you a prima facie right to do so. As far as I am aware (and I'm not a contract lawyer) if you've been paid on the item stolen - that item becomes the property of the insurance company if it turns up - not the original owner. Anyone with an insurance background able to shed any more light on this? I think it is a very good question to ask. But I would echo a sentiment from a previous poster that we should be careful not to get too deeply into how scams work so we're not providing a blue print for future criminals.

Great input Xhefri!

False claims of theft are not uncommon at all, as has been pointed out with several examples here in this thread. This just verifies for me that it would be risky to publish the entire sn, and withholding the last few digits will lessen the chances of success for low-lifes. Your post also gives the example asked for, even though you might not be believed by a fake lawyer or friend who is a lawyer, or wannabe lawyer (whatever ). I believe you, as do others who have had similar experiences such as I have had.

There is not one good reason to give the entire sn publicly. As stated before, no one outside of Fender can tell anything about a Fender guitar by the last few digits of the sn. Better safe than sorry, is wise. I know that in the future, I will definitely cover the last few digits of anything that I put up for sale on the net.

OK, ready for the long hot winds of blow-hards.

_________________
---> "The amp should be SWITCHED OFF AND UNPLUGGED before you do this!" <---

Por favor, disculpe mi español, no se llega a la práctica con mucha frecuencia.

it's so pathetic I'm actually sitting here laughing as I type - no, it does not give the example asked for, it is insightful - but by no means conslusive - but hey - cover up everything you want to. People with a modicum of intelligence will look at the thread and take away from it what the other 99.8% witha modicum of intelligence do. There is more than enough information here now for people to make an informed decision and that - not grandstanding how brilliant you think you are or managing to try and prove someone wrong - is really what matters.

Yeah, example was given, and we're still waiting for the retraction.

_________________
---> "The amp should be SWITCHED OFF AND UNPLUGGED before you do this!" <---

Por favor, disculpe mi español, no se llega a la práctica con mucha frecuencia.

No, a guy saying he knows some other guy who told him something is not "proving" anything. If you can prove this happened - do so. Absolutely NO record of this having happened is available anywhere so this is pure "I heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy" (hence my questioning it in detail). Look, I mean no offense here shimmilou, but you're really not very good at this whole thing and it would probably be better if you just kept quiet for a while. I've brought legislation, legal reasoning and a cast iron "if you can prove it - then I'll take the case for you" to the table - you've brought "if someone says you gave them a black eye you get arrested and put on trial" and "A guy on fender forums says he heard from another guy in NY that got arrested for buying a guitar - so that must be proof!!". I originally thought you meant well - but now it's clear you are just one of those people who argues the toss about everything to try and win a non-existent point. This isn't a battle shimmilou - it's a very simple case of knowing when to let things lie. If you genuinely and truly believe that what Xhefri posted constitutes "proof" of anything other than that he heard something from someone else - then I'll tell you what -for your purposes - especially for you - consider this my retraction (if that will get you to shut up about it).

Everyone else can read the rest of the thread which, as I have said - now gives them enough information from multiple sources to go on. I've said all I care to say on this now. Hopefully you'll see the sense is just letting the thread peter out.

Sorry Malcs, you are a bit out of line. You do not know me or who I am talking about. I know the story and I totally trust my friend who told me this. It was not a hearsay situation. I am not sure who you are either, but I can tell you that I am not ignorant about law and the due process of it. (not going to toot a horn here). What has been described here is totally possible and has happened. Seems kind of disrespectful that you insinuate that somehow this has all be fabricated for some reason.

Do this: Call the local police dept in your city and ask to talk for a detective. Tell him what we are talking about, with out any of your own slants, and see what he says. Tell him this: 1) A person calls the police and says his house has been broken into and that a coupe of his guitars have been stolen. 2) the police come and he files a police report and show the officer a bill of sale with a serial number, give the make and model of the guitars, and detailed description. 3) Then a week later he calls the detective and says he has found "his" guitar being advertised on Craigslist. 4) Ask the detective what will happen. This will settle the case once and for all. The police have to respond based on the info they have been given.

Also, a con will not do this for a Fender Squire. They target higher end guitars. Like I said in my post, I am not fearful about this, nor should we be paranoid. But if you live in a bigger city it might be a safe precaution when advertising a guitar at least on Craigslist. Just using some common sense. You scoff at that?

I think a lot of people are pretty naive when it come to crime. I have had to deal with some real cons. But there are things as simple as posting a picture on the internet of anything or anyone and if you know how to "source" the picture and if the picture was taken with an iPhone or a digital camera that has a personal setup in it, the person can get when the picture was taken, where the owner of the camera lives, and even GPS coordinates of the persons home (what is called a geo-tag). There have been stalking incidents and child abductions from such info. (see: http://icanstalku.com/ )

There are a lot of ways to scam people.

Look at http://newscastmedia.com/blog/2010/08/13/digital-photos-on-web-could-display-your-private-personal-information/. Some interesting info on there but a whole other subject. All these info tells me, use common sense......do not be paranoid.....be realistic. Oh, and scoff all you want till it happens to you.....

_________________
Xhefri's Guitars
www.xhefriguitars.com

If the scenario encompasses someone seeing your guitar on CL and calling the police to report it's theft from their home, heres what my local police dept has to say:

1) Theres no time limit for reporting the theft to the police dept in my city.

2) The claimant will have to provide some proof (A valid receipt.) that the guitar actually belongs to him/her and they'll have to be able to describe the guitar in detail, like (My kid gave me a sticker of an angel and I put it in the pick-up cavity. Take off the pick guard and you'll see it." Every little bit helps in a recovery.

3) The police will come to you and inquire about the property and ask you for your proof of ownership, try to make sense of the situation and usually make a decision on the spot.

4) If there are still questions the police dept will attempt to go back through the "chain of events" to ascertain who owns what and/or who is lying.

5) If you have a receipt from your local dealer, a warranty card or receipts that predate the supposed theft, you're solid. If the claimant has a receipt scribbled in ballpoint with an unreadable signature or something signed by a guy who's name he got off a tombstone and who's been dead for 20 years, hes is either trouble with the police or he has wasted his time. Either way, the cops won't be happy with him and he could be arrested. Of course, if he has a receipt from your local music store or another previous owner and the original owner backs it up, he gets the guitar, as he should.

6) The nice police lady also commented, that in these hard financial times, they're seeing an explosion of scams involving things like stolen cars, motorcycles, washing machines (Removed from houses awaiting sale.), etc but musical instruments are being stolen from places like storage lockers and for those thefts, you'd better call them immediately with a serial number list, because once the pile is broken up, your chances of recovery are very slim.

The police officers advice?

1) If you buy a bimbo guitar from someone, write up a receipt and don't pay-up until it's signed, dated and in your pocket.

2) If you buy a guitar via Ebay, print out the auction page and the PP transaction records and put them in a file. (You do that anyway, right?)

3) Interstate recoveries of property other than big ticket items that require State and Federal records (Aircraft, motorcycles, cars, financial instruments, etc.) are almost non-existent (In my town!) and a phone call or a filing from a small town cop in W. Virginia reporting a theft, is not going to get you arrested. Just hold on to your proof of purchase and show it to the the cops when they climb out of the flying saucer.

What gets me, is the number of people who have purchased used instruments in good faith, not knowing whether they're stolen or not but who would prefer not to know. I have no desire to buy stolen goods and If I have your property, I want you to have it back despite the cost to me. I think thats called integrity and I'm beginning to think that it's getting to be a rare commodity.

Thanks for sharing mymindsok. I will call our local Prosecuting Attorney on Monday or Tuesday and ask him about it. He is a good friend of mine. Will be interesting to compare notes.

_________________
Xhefri's Guitars
www.xhefriguitars.com

Ah! Once again, The British are coming. One if by air, two if by sea. I hope the firefighters are along as well.......to put out this blaze. We do carry on , don't we.
Knowing Xhefri, and his pedigree, and the fact that he's maintained one of the most awesome guitar websites on the planet for so ever how long, I'd defer to his opinion and pack it in. IMHO, the issue has been well covered, over argued, and the necessary precautions put out for anyone who cares to take.

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"

But, but, bit...arguing is half the fun!!!! LOL!

_________________
Xhefri's Guitars
www.xhefriguitars.com

If I may take the liberty of delving into waters you are totally familiar with, the last argument of this type led to the parting of the Red Sea.......and you know how that one ended

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"

The law varies depending on where you are. In Scotland if you buy something "bona fides", I.e in good faith, not knowing it was stolen you are a good faith possessor. You can keep whatever you bought, however the person it was stolen from would have to get some sort of "unjustified enrichment" from you. And im pretty sure you or him could probably sue the guy that nicked it in the first place.

mymindsok's subsequent post (where he says he has phoned the police themselves) seems more likely. I don't mean any disrespect - but a few things don't really add up there xhefri - firstly I'm not out of line - as much as your reassurance that you trust your friend may satisfy you and others - you are absolutely spot on - I don't know you or your friend so I make no apologies for asking you to provide more detail and some proof of what happened in order to believe your anecdote. I could provide a completely contrary story in about 10 seconds - it would carry as much veracity as yours absent any proof. All I have to go on is the very scant and unverifiable information you have given and it's not disrespectful in the slightest to suggest that what you have been told might be a bit one sided or even partially fabricated. It seems like a very suspicious situation - one where perhaps your friend has downplayed his culpability or overplayed the role of the police - I'm not saying it's unbelievable - but it is the kind of story that needs some convincing beyond "this guy told me this".

I don't read in your post that you were there when your friend got busted? I may have read that wrong but I think you said that he told you - reputable as you may think he is (and as watertight as having a website and "pedigree(?)" makes your reputation in some people's eyes) - what you've given us so far is still little more than hearsay - it's not even a matter of this being my opinion, or trying to be rude, disrespectful or argumentative - it's a simple legal fact - ask your Prosecutor friend and they'll tell you your story - as presented - amounts to hearsay - that doesn't mean it isn't true - it just means it's far from definitive without any proof to back it up.

I really don't mean to be a d**k about it- but I'm not really in the mood for having to argue against several people who profess to the know the law - but seem quite off on many of their assertions. I practice almost exclusively public, contract and European law here in the UK - so my criminal law is a bit rusty - but I'm looking everything up as I go along and batting 90% of this out of the park with very little effort - I wouldn't even trust me to defend myself on a criminal charge so I am by no means suggesting that I am 100% on everything - but I'd take this whole thread as a case in a heartbeat - it would be easy money!

This can all be easily put to bed though Xhefri. Just give us the name of the police station where your friend was booked and the date this happened (to the nearest month if you're struggling) - a quick phone call to the department would sort all this out. Clearly the more information you can get on this (his name, the type of guitar, the name of his accuser, the booking officer etc) the better and that you are good friends with the guy this happened to means you are uniquely placed get definitive proof that this all took place - this will not only set some minds at rest - but it will also let other people know how seriously they need to take this whole issue!

For what it's worth, I believe your friend may have had an issue - and I believe you believe him - but I doubt it is exactly as you have represented it here and while your website rocks - and your guitar mods are cool - it is evidence I am interested in here - not reputation. Genuinely do not mean of any this disrespectfully - but like you said - debating the issue is the best bit. So far - I think mymindsok has provided the best angle on the whole thing from phoning his local precinct - that, more than anything else - sounds about right to me.

I don't see "someone told me this and you must believe it on that basis" as definitive - if it were - we'd all still believe in Santa.