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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:31 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
Shimmilou: Todd suggests that either George Blanda or Dan Smith might be the resource for the reason why the wood block was included. It is part of the record written by A.R. Duchossoir that EC wanted the equivalent of a hardtail in the new guitar, but insisted on maintaining the trem system. It is, in my '89 and others going forward, as it was in the old guitar. I'm sorry that I cannot post a photo of the back cover of the Christies auction catalog, because a picture is worth a thousand words, as the back of the old Blackie graces that cover. Perhaps Chromeface will pick this up and supply one.



Here:
Image
and there:
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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:08 am
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Image
and there:
Image[/quote]
Thanks for making the effort, mon ami.

Now note herein that the mass block of the bridge in the Blackie is flush to the wood. In the gold leaf Signature guitar, there remains a small gap. The wood block appears to be the same size as the one in mine. Note the placement of the trem claw, likely the only Stratocaster Fender produces which is set up like that.

Presently, the setup in my new '57VHR is floating, with the claw about 1/4'' away. I plan to have it changed to reflect the top photo.

As a side note, has it ever been established whether or not the '56 Brownie was set up the same?

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:12 pm
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stratofiedmind wrote:
I find this very interesting. Has anyone tried different sizes of wood block? Different thicknesses? What about woods, say, alder block vs ash, maple, mahogany or even pine? The chi-coms use pine for Tele bodies, so why not? The possibilites are endless.

In previous discussions on how to do this, members have indicated that they've even used steel. Many of the setups shown did not drive the trem claw back against the body. Prior to your post I opened the back of my guitar to find that the tech who did my last setup pulled that trem claw away. I'm going to have that matter rectified ASAP. I would expect that The Music Zoo's tech should know the difference. In addition I emailed Fender Consumer Relations to inquire as to what kind of wood the factory is using in their Artist Series guitars. The orginal wood block in my guitar has shrunk such that it will not remain snuggly in that gap. When and if I hear from Fender, I will post the substances of the reply here.

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:08 pm
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Heres one more thing to think about...

The way I was taught to Block a trem was to measure the distance that I wanted the bridge's back side to be raised above the body, measure the space between the tone block and the cavity, cut a block to fit that space and then back off the trem springs and let string tension hold the block/bridge in place.

The way to Deck a trem was to screw in the plate till the trem plate was flattened against the surface of the body, using three, four or five springs.

What I'm looking at in the above photo has the trem decked flat by five springs and then a wood block stuffed into the cavity. I don't get it.

All that the blocks going to do is damp out the resonance of the Trem's steel tone block, one of the major reasons for paying more to have the Vintage Bridge system. If the point is to get the texture thats added by the springs, that idea would seem work better with less tension on the springs.

Can someone explain the thinking behind that way of doing things? I'm always willing to learn something new!


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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:20 pm
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mymindsok wrote:
Heres one more thing to think about...
Can someone explain the thinking behind that way of doing things? I'm always willing to learn something new!

Your point being well made, go up to Alains's post at the top of the page and you'll find inclusive of that, one of my posts paraphrasing a response I received from Rob Schwarz of Fender regarding that very question, in that the old Blackie did not have a wood block. It had been observed that, with the trem set as in the first photo, that bridge isn't going anywhere and the wood block, as you say, becomes redundant. Further more, publicity photos of the back of the Blackie replica reveal that the trem claw was not set against the guitar body. Go figure that one out in the light of Mike Eldred's narrative of the detailed analysis of that guitar by the Custom Shop at the outset of the Tribute project. I've put the question of the wood block to Consumer Relations but have yet to get a reply. Keep in mind though, with respect to your comment on the resonance provided by the laxity of the springs, the configuration of the trem system in the iconic instrument which Clapton played for years. He recognized something in this pseudo-hardtail which was contributed by the springs, which is why he wanted the idea incorporated into the new guitar. Why need for the block? We have yet to come to know. I should add, in closing, that Todd is indeed Todd Krause, and part of his commentary to Rob included a short reflection on it likely having something to do with tone. One can only assume that Clapton's stage guitars have it but, who knows. There's every reason in the world for him to remove it. Hell, he's made so many other modifications in his stage gear in the past he has his fan base chasing shadows.

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:22 pm
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I have made a number of observations while experimenting with different ways to lock down a trem.

I originally blocked my trem as shown here:

Image

I used a machined aluminum block that I found sitting in one of my junk drawers. After a little sanding, it was a perfect fit.

Notice that the trem claw is not tightened down all the way. I played around with adjusting the spring tension by loosening/tighting the claw while listening to the body resonance with my ear to the bass side horn of the body. I found that with the springs too loose, there was vibration/rattle from the springs that could easily be heard. If the springs were too tight, they would pull the trem block away from the aluminum block, loosening the fit of the aluminum block between the trem block and the body of the guitar. The result was a noticable decrease in the acoustic sustain of the guitar. After playing around for awhile, I found a spring tension which was sufficient to keep the springs from rattling while not enough to decrease the tightness of the aluminum block fit. In this case, string tension kept the block in place with a very tight fit. This position coincided with the maximum sustain point.

I have since removed the aluminum block and tightened the trem claw all the way down. This method seems to have increased the "jangle" and brightness of the guitar sound with a slight, but noticable increase in sustain.

My recommendations out of all this are as follows:

1. If using both a block and spring tension to immobilize the bridge, make sure that the block is made out of the densest material you can find and that it fits as tightly as possible in the space between the trem block and body. Adjust the trem claw so that string tension is sufficient to maximize the clamping force of the trem block on the blocking device. This will insure maximum energy transfer between the vibrating strings and the body. Tightening the trem claw too much will result in two transmission paths for the string vibration which I feel will actually decrease the amount of sustain achieved.

2. If using only the trem springs to immobilize the trem, tighten the trem claw all the way to the body wall. This will allow the bridge base to apply maximum pressure to the body top, and will create a solid path for transmission of string vibrations through the trem block and springs to the body allowing for maximum sustain.

The longer I have my guitar configured as in #2 above, the more I have come to prefer it over blocking the trem. YMMV.

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:27 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
2. If using only the trem springs to immobilize the trem, tighten the trem claw all the way to the body wall. This will allow the bridge base to apply maximum pressure to the body top, and will create a solid path for transmission of string vibrations through the trem block and springs to the body allowing for maximum sustain.

The longer I have my guitar configured as in #2 above, the more I have come to prefer it over blocking the trem. YMMV.

Thus, you've given a second to the setup in the Blackie as pictured. Somewhere down the road we may find out why the wood block was incorporated in the Signature guitar as illustrated for us by Alain. Thanks for your research.
Doc :wink:

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:58 am
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I wonder if it was merely a simple matter of terminology misunderstanding. When we have a block party, we aren't all gathered around a block of wood. If the path to an an entry door is blocked, it doesn't mean that it has a block of wood in front of it. :idea:

Is it possible that someone referred to a "blocked trem" (or even a "locked trem") meaning that it doesn't move, and someone interpreted that as an actual block of wood? After all, the bridge on a Strat is definitely not a "tremolo", but that's what Leo called it so it stuck. (it's actually a "vibrato").

We have absolutely no indication whatsoever that EC ever had a block of wood in any of his personal guitars, so again, what type of thinking other than a misunderstanding, would come up with a block of wood that never existed before.

Of course, the simplest explanation might be that EC did have a block of wood in his guitar at one time (my belief). I know that the books give some vague explanation as to how/who came up with the idea of using a block of wood, but very unclear as to why, especially considering that this is supposed to be very similar to an EC guitar.

What's next, stickers on an EJ Strat? He did complain once that his neck felt sticky. :lol:

From previous discussions about this block, it seems that the replicas of Blackie did not have the block of wood, yet the description on the Fender site clearly indicates that it does have a block of wood, even stating "just like the original". :?:

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:19 am
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shimmilou wrote:
From previous discussions about this block, it seems that the replicas of Blackie did not have the block of wood, yet the description on the Fender site clearly indicates that it does have a block of wood, even stating "just like the original". :?:


As a matter of review, as we got into this discussion, I Googled the replica and found a photo of the front and back of it. Not only was there no wood block shown but, as I've said before, the trem claw was set back a distance represented by that red strat up above. So much for authenticity and attention to detail. Small glitch maybe, but at $25K a pop, its a big deal IMHO.

Now as to terminology, I have memory of that setup being referred to as a 'stopped' trem in some quarters. In either case, blocked or stopped, the historians we rely on have documented Clapton's expressed dissatisfaction with the traditional hardtail configuration in favor of this setup which, in his opinion, contributed something more to the tone of his guitar. Why the added wood block, I suppose we'll have to follow Todd Krause's suggestion as passed on through Rob Schwarz and seek out the people who were involved.

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:43 am
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I think that you're right, details! And "stopped" could have been mentioned also. I would really only be interested to hear fro EC himself as to whether or not he ever used a block of wood, that would be the end-all. Everyone else seems to be guessing and getting many of the details wrong.

One good thing, at least this time, is that the conversation is much more pleasant for me. :wink: Of course I've learned not to depend on Fender or the site for being accurate, at least as far as this discussion. :o

I also have asked Fender "Did EC ever use a block of wood in his Strat?" I did receive a reply that mentioned every EC model, but did not answer my question. And that's OK, maybe they didn't know or didn't want to get into the middle of it, I'm not mad at them. :)

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:48 am
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Shimmilou...my mate...yon picture is worth a thousand turds.... :wink: Just place your cursor over the photo...
http://gc.guitarcenter.com/clapton/detail.cfm?tabgray=1

Maybe this is a job for Mike Eldred :idea: See my post to his forum. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:15 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
Shimmilou...my mate...yon picture is worth a thousand turds.... :wink: Just place your cursor over the photo...
http://gc.guitarcenter.com/clapton/detail.cfm?tabgray=1

Maybe this is a job for Mike Eldred :idea: See my post to his forum. :wink:


To further confuse matters, here is a "Blackie" replica currently on sale at Maken Music. Check out the location of it's trem claw:

http://www.makenmusic.com/product.cfm?p ... 08&catID=1

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:30 am
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Quote:
To further confuse matters, here is a "Blackie" replica currently on sale at Maken Music. Check out the location of it's trem claw:
http://www.makenmusic.com/product.cfm?p ... 08&catID=1


As I suspected, before reaching the bottm of the page, this is a pre-owned instrument whose trem system was likely adjusted by the current owner to conform to the image on the back of the catalog, which Alain posted up top.

Hope Mike Eldred will jump into this discussion.

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:20 am
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:lol: Yeah, none of the pictures show any block of wood. I think that it was the Fender site that mentioned the replica with the block of wood, even though the pictures show no block. IIRC, the consensus was that there were no blocks in the original or the replicas despite any descriptions, and the sig Strats came with a block.

BHB4?

Found this old discussion about the block of wood. :oops:
http://www.fender.com/community/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41606

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Post subject: Re: ...on the Clapton 'blocked' trem
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:52 am
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Tomorrow I'll go inside of the back of one of the "triplets" :D :wink:
Might be interesting....as you know their history...

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