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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:28 am
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Limerot....gallo for numbers

Limerot.... your argument is akin to flogging a dead horse.. You insist on all of us agreeing with your standpoints.
I'll grant you that the " temperament " system ( hate the name, misappropriation when you consider that temperament is a term based on cerebral psychology.. :roll: ) has its merits in its proper context.

Your argument has so far been myopic. " Vintage ", or " Vintage Reissue " the definition of those two terms imply that those instruments are period correct. They were designed in the 50's and 60's and have that time periods inherent design faults.
I have a Fender Custom Shop 56 NOS Strat. Since you seem to not be up to speed with Fender's products I will clarify. This model line is built as it was done in the mid 50's, same configuration of electronics, tuners, bridge or in a nutshell, the whole kit-n-kaboodle.. :lol: :wink:
It is not perfect as far as intonation but that is what a vintage instrument is about. Could I improve it's idiosincracies with locking staggered tuners, the bridge you prefer, and replace the neck with the temp.. system. :?: :idea: :?:
I could...and in the process ruin an instrument...
I'm all for innovation, but in its proper context. You don't...or at least shouldn't take vintage instruments and alter them to what they were never designed to be.
But there are quite a few modern lines in the Fender product offerings with improvements aimed at intonation issues.

As your standpoint on softwood, Maple is not a softwood, it is a hardwood. Guitars will always react to environmental changes be that in drastic temperature changes or humidity.
To that point you as a " tech " should know that when bringing instruments from warm to cold or vice versa, they must be left in their cases to acclimate. Otherwise as the guitar either contracts or expands, tuning is next to impossible.

Back to once again Fender offering sensibly priced.. :? guitars with custom features.. :roll:
It is a contradiction...The Custom Shop will master build just about anything you can dream up ( within sensible reason ) however it will cost you the customer for that attention to detail and all the labor involved.
Fender is conservative and it's not.. many of their products are a result of consumer feedback. some are retro, others are quite innovative but it has to be based on the health of the company. I cannot see Fender in the same light as a Ned Steinberger, one of the realities is that as a company grows, it's ability to market it's latest innovations on the same scale as their growth is just not possible. This would mean hundreds of innovative products lying dormant, unsold, because the market share is minimal for those products. A great recipe for going bankrupt...." CBS ".. :roll:

I went to your links and OK, it has peaked my interest and I may in the future consider building a Strat with that neck depending on the cost. The bridge, esthetically it doesn't work for me as well as there are other options with similar benefits.

Obviously this thread, as the more recent posts reflect was about creating an argument, which from my standpoint is pointless. I enjoy a challenging debate, but when an argument ( a debate concerning differing opinions ) descends into uncivility then it ceases to be constructive.
Your original post was voiced in a confrontational context and if you ruffled feathers then it is you Limerot who brought it on.
On this forum there are many members who will discuss, argue, dispute, support, etc...etc... a topic until the cows come home. Some are much more knowledgeable than I and have corrected me in the past when I have been incorrect.
For the future, it would be much more pleasant if you opened a topic with a request for a civil opinionated debate instead of pointing out how Fender is wrong and we who prefer some of it's products are akin to a remnant of Australopithecus...

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:22 am
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Well said, 53.

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:40 am
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oneal lane wrote:
What has a happened on this thread is a perfect example of why Windwalker posted the thread "What has happened to this forum"

Someone comes to the forum to discuss some new ideas, how things might be improved, and he is shouted down, insulted......

Perfect example.


Thumbs up!

When there is no rom for opinion, new thoughts, one might think that this forum as in DDR, not USA.


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:09 am
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limerot wrote:
When there is no rom for opinion, new thoughts, one might think that this forum as in DDR, not USA.


That's where you are wrong. This being the USA, we are free to express our disagreement with you or anyone else. If this were a totalitarian state, we would be forced to accept your "opinion" and "thoughts" as the one and only truth. Please get your analogies straight. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:15 am
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Dontcha just luv it :!: :!: :!: :lol: Never debate with members of the Flat Earth Society. Just let 'em sail off into the sunset and over the edge. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:15 am
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Mein Gott, somebody notify the Stazi!

:lol:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:26 am
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Well, well, folks, no need to argue. :D All opinions are valid, and we should respect their authors, regardless of whether we agree or not.

When I read the first post a while back I thought: "Oh, this'll be fun!", and I must say, from experience, these sort of threads get a bit emotional, don't they? 8) But there's really no need for that.

First off, there's the urge of the OP to get the manufacturer to improve his products. This is in no way an invalid proposition. However, the path to bliss is not very often by public discussion on these things... if you want to tell a manufacturer that his products do not match your demands, don't buy them. Buy elsewhere. If it really bothers you.

Which brings me to my second point: Why exactly are you trying to get Fender to take away your income, theoretically speaking? It puzzles me a tiny bit, that's all.

But as for innovative, competative products, we should as always also throw our gaze tawards Asia, where ex Fender and Gibson-manufacturing contractor FGN is busy crafting and selling very well made instruments under their own label. Have a look at their "circle fretting system", isn't that something you'd actually like to have on a guitar? Not only because it probably works (haven't tried it myself), but because it actually looks pleasing to the eye. Unlike the True Temperament system. Subjective, of course. Buy what you will! 8)

And people who disagree with certain aspects of the Fender product line buy elsewhere all the time. They do! That's why we have such a diverse landscape of manufacturers. It's called competition and is what improves all manufacturers, eventually. And the best thing is, Fender encourages buying other products! It is important to play differently "flavoured" guitars. It keeps us fresh and widens our horizons.

So I would say we need a more relaxed attitude towards these things. Try something new every once in a while, and enjoy the ride. Eventually the best system will become so popular that other manufacturers will copy it - and we'll all be around to see which one that might be. 8)

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:33 am
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limerot wrote:
oneal lane wrote:
What has a happened on this thread is a perfect example of why Windwalker posted the thread "What has happened to this forum"
Someone comes to the forum to discuss some new ideas, how things might be improved, and he is shouted down, insulted......
Perfect example.

Thumbs up!
When there is no rom for opinion, new thoughts, one might think that this forum as in DDR, not USA.

Going on four years participating in this Forum, one develops a sixth sense about how the company approaches R&D and marketing of its product. A guy like Mike Eldred really has his finger on the pulse of things and, I have no doubt, that if the company felt that incorporating any of the ideas you have suggested were worth the squeeze, they would be in production. He made it quite clear that the word "Pro" following the name of a Custom Shop instrument, stands for Prototype. These are new idea guitars, dreamed up by the builders. Some of what they create, often finds its way down to the factory 'line'. And just think, if the company covered all the bases, there would be nothing left for all the after-market manufacturers do to, there would be no more 'modding' of guitars, and ideas like the Road Worn and Pawn Shop lines, among others would never happen. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:38 am
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53magnatone wrote:
Limerot....gallo for numbers

As your standpoint on softwood, Maple is not a softwood, it is a hardwood. Guitars will always react to environmental changes be that in drastic temperature changes or humidity.
To that point you as a " tech " should know that when bringing instruments from warm to cold or vice versa, they must be left in their cases to acclimate. Otherwise as the guitar either contracts or expands, tuning is next to impossible.


Thanks for the reply. This is how a respond should be. Informative and polite, even if you disagree. Sometimes, it's hard to be a man with a capital letter M. For those who's not, I suggest nursing-school.

But, I did not wrote softwood, I wrote 'soft' wood. Even the hardest wood can bend more than a softer wood when it is exposed to different temperature and humidity. Wood is organic, and you do not know how stable it is before you put it to use, like using it for a guitar neck.

Oddly enough, Cedrela (spanish cedar) is a softer wood than the hardest woods, but it is super-stable when you use it for a guitar neck. It sounds big and bold too. If I can come with one of my own opinions, that is, my own, spanish cedar is the best neck wood there is.

I knew a guitar builder that made a solid fretless jazzbass neck of ebony. Ebony is hard, but the neck was more unstable than many maple necked jazzbasses I have played on.

I have owned a really sweet superjumbo refretted '64 Jaguar. But it was so unstable that it could not be used in the real world. Maybe because the neck was half insanely flamed maple, and half plain maple. I do not know. But that piece of wood could have been used on an Evertune equipped guitar perfectly. With that bridge, that wood would have been unaffected if I brought the guitar to a gig in the trunk of a car during winter, thanks to the marvel of a design that the Evertune bridge is.

Would a guitar be better with an Evertune bridge on? If you want the guitar to be in perfect tune thru a whole concert or a studio session, yes. Would it look like a stock Fender? No. Do you want a Fender to be in tune during a whole consert or a studio session? Rest my case..

Point is, a good Fender can be a better Fender.


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:52 am
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limerot wrote:
oneal lane wrote:
What has a happened on this thread is a perfect example of why Windwalker posted the thread "What has happened to this forum"

Someone comes to the forum to discuss some new ideas, how things might be improved, and he is shouted down, insulted......

Perfect example.


Thumbs up!

When there is no rom for opinion, new thoughts, one might think that this forum as in DDR, not USA.


Inference being incorrect.

There is room for opinion, there is room for new thoughts, but it is about the presentation of such thoughts and opinions.
I am in the green hills of NE Connecticut, not the Black Forest, once again you are throwing fuel on the fire by that DDR versus USA inference. There is no need for that, Fraulein....!

I myself prefer the Schaller Hannes( schaller-electronic.com ) designed bridge to the evertune, granted there is quite a bit of woodworking as in routing out for plate install but it is to my eyes a much cleaner hardtail bridge with individual saddles.

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:57 am
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limerot wrote:
Sometimes, it's hard to be a man with a capital letter M. For those who's not, I suggest nursing-school.


Gotta love it. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 1:06 pm
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[quote="limerot] Point is, a good Fender can be a better Fender.[/quote]
There's a thought you can bounce off Mike Eldred for starters, along with all your suggestions. His point of view might be of interest.

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 2:51 pm
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Just for the record I don't see anything objectionable about the original post here -- these are the kinds of ideas that do occasionally ultimately spur discussions that in turn do occasonially influence products. I certainly can't say that that'll be the case here but healthy, respectful, and even spirited debate about topics of this nature is a good thing. WIth an emphasis on respectful. :-)

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:28 pm
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Dang, I'm sorry I'm late to the party!

I think some of you ideas have merit. I don't like the looks of that bridge you suggested and the Tempermental fretwires (that's a purposeful misspelling, by the way) make me glad I quit drinking, but both of those products might perform just as suggested and would be awesome on a specific model.

Either of those accessories would make a reasonably priced guitar financially out of reach for the intended consumer, and a well-heeled customer might not find these "improvements" attractive or necessary.

I think what most people on this thread have said (in ways polite, stern and in-between) is that your ideas fit your definition of an improved Stratocaster or Telecaster.

My idea of an improved Strat or Tele are the things I've done to them (changed pickups/pickguards, modified electronics for more switching options, blocked tremolo on Strat, etc.). While some of you ideas are interesting, most don't appeal to me.

Guitarists are also somewhat strange creatures...we want something entirely unique and original, but not too much. Both of my Fender guitars, while "improved", are not obviously modified at first glance (in the hot rod world, they used to call cars like that "sleepers"; I don't know if there's a guitar equivalent, but that's how I refer to the modifications I put on my instruments). I treasure the looks and lines of Leo's original design. Many of the "improvements" you suggest would mar what some see as perfection. That's like giving the Mona Lisa breast implants; yes, she would be bigger, but that's not what we're looking for when we go to the Louvre.

Your ideas have merit--for some people's taste but not all...and that's ok, because we are all chasing tone and perfection with our instruments.

By the way, it's extremely crappy to infer the DDR just because the majority of the people on this Forum disagreed with your suggestions (whether they did it impolitely or not). I have friends and religious brothers who lost freedom, dignity and family to those evil bastards, and I am disgusted and offended that you would throw that term and that reference around so cavalierly. I'm not sorry if that hurts your feelings.

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:29 pm
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The only thing I see wrong with this is the statement that the True Temperament system delivers a accurately intonated guitar. The only way to acheive that is to acheive true accuracy is to go with a 31 fret to the octave refret.
True temperament, fanned frets, compensated nuts and anything else that someone may invent in the future, that doesn't address the problems of the modern music scale, will only be masking the problem. Not solving it.

Personaly I think some of the greatest music ever recorded was made on what we today would call inferior instruments. I don't really notice Buddy Holy's sharp thirds and flat fifths. Or that his low end intonation was a mile off. I just hear the jittery vocals and the whumpa whumpa back beat.

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