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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:21 am
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To me a guitar should be simple kinda like me. I don,t need anything fancy.


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:22 am
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Limerot, of course you are right........for YOU........ :wink:

There was a point made earlier about STrats being great out of the box nd then having a wonderful aftermarket and that is the point, I think with STrats and Teles.

Remember, those of us who have an interest in tech work, building and 'tinkering' will just get down and experiment. There are probably many, many more who just like the guitars out of the box..........is that so wrong?

I am relatively new to the tech stuff and building and find that the bulk of my business comes from those who want these aftermarket mods done.....if guitars came with most of these done.....I'd be out of pocket!! :?

Evertune bridges.....well I just don't like how they look.........sorry but in my opinion they're pretty nasty looking and the STrats and Teles

limerot wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
limerot wrote:
VGS guitars in Germany have a down-right steal pricewise for one of their Evertune equipped guitars.


http://en.euroguitar.com/guitar/vgs/pro ... 40481.html

I don't consider $3784.00 (at current exchange rates) a "down-right steal". :roll:


http://www.musikhaus-korn.de/de/VGS-Eve ... Black.html


THat guitars you have to ask how good they are.......sorry but when you see the price of Evertune bridges and the price of that guitar.....well...let's just say they are not getting those bridges for under $50 each so what quality does the guitar have???

Sorry.....sceptical to the end......... :wink: :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:33 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
limerot wrote:
None of my ideas would make a strat or a tele anything other than a better guitar with original sound intact.

And the guitar (not with Evertune and TT) would look original, but with a more positive feel.


In your opinion. An opinion not necessarily shared by all.

I bet you even like the Gibson Robot and Firebird X guitars. Thank goodness Fender has the good sense to build guitars that are actually useable and sell.


No, not my opinion, just from the customers that own a standard Fender, and want them to be better, like stay better in tune etc. Every customers that had staggered locking tuners with no string tree and vintage trem bridge with a push in arm refitted to their strats, was satisfied and gave good feedback to this modification. 'Less tuning problems during a concert' etc, and 'why do not Fender offer this as standard when it works so good', is a common feedback.

(the Jeff Beck model and some ultras that I have repaired have staggered locking tuners with no string tree and a push in tremolo arm, but does not look vintage)

Anyone that have tried the vintage Wilkinson strat bridge, do not know why Fender does not have a vintage model with a push in arm. Users say that they have more control when they play. And finally a tremolo that looks vintage, but is better than the original Fender model.

If Fender want to improve the vintage tremolo, this is the way to go, with a push in arm. Looks stock, but with better handling. And the bridge cost much less then the inferior Fender model, too. A win win situation.

Yes, I like the Robot system, but that is because I use four different tunings, but the X models I do not like. I suspect that Gibson will loose money on that one. It does not look right. But a Fender with 'hidden' upgrades do. Like the compensated saddles on a vintage tele bridge. Looks right, but the guitar have better intonation. Vintage tele bridges have poor intonation.

In a studio session, one needs to tune the guitar to a specific key to sound right on a vintage tele bridge, when you want to have good intonation. But when the guitarist go up an octave and play fill-inns and spice, like on many pop-tunes, you need to re-tune that tele to be in key. With compensated saddes, this difference is less. Ergo, the bridge is better. This is a common fact.

I agree that the True Temperament necks are expensive, and I do not see standard Fenders with this superior swedish innovation in the near future, but if you want perfect intonation and an easy studio-life, this is the way to go.

But the Evertune bridge on a standard Fender tele I do see as a possibility. Everyone that have played a guitar with big frets and thin strings know how easy it is to sound off key when the chords are pushed hard by the fretting hand. With the Evertune bridge, this does not exist, the intonation is better, and the listener and player will have a relative higher listening experience.

A good Fender can be a better Fender, that is a fact.


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:38 am
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limerot wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
limerot wrote:
VGS guitars in Germany have a down-right steal pricewise for one of their Evertune equipped guitars.


http://en.euroguitar.com/guitar/vgs/pro ... 40481.html

I don't consider $3784.00 (at current exchange rates) a "down-right steal". :roll:


http://www.musikhaus-korn.de/de/VGS-Eve ... Black.html


Don't speak German. What I do see though, is a cheap Strat copy/wanna be with an unnecessary bridge. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:06 am
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http://www.musikhaus-korn.de/de/VGS-Eve ... Black.html[/quote]

THat guitars you have to ask how good they are.......sorry but when you see the price of Evertune bridges and the price of that guitar.....well...let's just say they are not getting those bridges for under $50 each so what quality does the guitar have???

Sorry.....sceptical to the end......... :wink: :roll:[/quote]

Well, I am too, sceptical. But German engineering.. They are very clinical in their quality control.. US vs. German cars? Hmmm...

The point here, is that if VGS can produce a good fair priced Evertune model, so can Fender. If a hard working woman want to stay in tune during a whole concert, and still want a Fender, she would choose the Evertune model, if Fender had one. If the VGS is a bad guitar, which I doubt, Fender would make it better with their quality control.


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:56 am
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53magnatone wrote:

" True Temperament Fretting System "... :wink:....

I gather you meant " Tempered " which is actually a guitar's set up in relation to notes and the inherent restrictions.
It is not a perfect system but rather a compromise. If you are refering to a system like Novak's Patented Fan Fret System, this would make a strat out of reach for the 99th percentile. Upon checking into it, say a Del Vezeau Baritone with that fret system is around the $16,000 mark... :shock: I don't think there are too many people out there willing to buy ( experiment ) with that system.

As concerning reinventing the wheel @ FMIC I would suggest applying for a job there and seeing wether your suggestions are feasible on both, a retooling of production methods as well as from a marketing to sales standpoint....

Good Luck......


http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

As I have written, I do not see standard Fender models with this fretting system. It would be a better Fender for sure, but the price would be to high. But I suspect that there will be some custom shop one-off models with this fretting system. Some just do want the best there is.

Fender do not need to re-tool a CNC router to rout a hole for the Evertune bridge, but re-program the CNC router. That is an easy job for Fender. The hardest part is to marketing a Fender guitar that does not go out of tune..


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:11 am
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Yawn. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:19 am
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Quote:

Seems ironic to me that on the outside guitar players are all about sex, drugs & rock 'n roll/anti-establishment/rebellion, yet when it comes to accepting new guitar technology, most are about as conservative as is gets

oddguitar (Evertune user)


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:42 am
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limerot wrote:
Quote:

Seems ironic to me that on the outside guitar players are all about sex, drugs & rock 'n roll/anti-establishment/rebellion, yet when it comes to accepting new guitar technology, most are about as conservative as is gets

oddguitar (Evertune user)


You know something, Limerot, you are probably quite correct and I agree with that to a large degree. :roll: :wink:

For me, personally, playing guitar and figuring out all the little 'idiosyncracies'(is that spelled right... :oops: ) of the guitar you are playing is part of what makes you unique......

Intonation issues is something we have put up with for years and struggling with intonation before you understand how it works is one of the things that helpedmany guitarists figure out their bending techniques....... :roll: :shock:

The things you suggest ARE things that help make the guitar easier to play but I question as to whether they make it more FUN to play........

Yup I am a bit old-fashioned and stuck in my ways, but I like the way a Strat plays as is. I don't particularly like tremolos so I play a hard-tail so that is that problem sorted......if I wanted a tremolo I would do something myself......I am able to and it was through trying stuff out and wanting to try stuff out without paying big bucks that pushed me to experiment.

Many people won't experiment because they don't feel they have to. I know many guitarists who have stock STrats and Teles and LPs and SGs and PRSs that have cost WAY more than I have ever spent on a guitar and they just have them cos the play nice and look nice straight out of the box and would think that modding them with a new bridge, new gears, heck even new pickups as absolute sacrilege!!! :shock:

I buy guitars primarily on how they feel to play and then see what I can do to them to get the sound I am looking for.

It's all horses for courses though, as they say, and o two guitarists like exactly the same thing. You are a tech, as am I, and if the companies were to offer models with all these options to anyone at reasonable prices what would happen to us???? :wink:

I see your point but I just don't agree that Fender necessarily need to do this......other companies do so go with them for those and go with Fender for Fender's sake....how long have the Strat and Tele been as they are?

ANd let's face it.........if we could have one guitar that played everything the way we wanted it to it would mean we didn't have to buy several guitars to have and to mess about with and where is the fun in that!!!!!! :wink: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:27 pm
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All very interesting and also kind of personal opinion as to what constitutes "better"; you post that a lot of your customers with these mods like them; I would suggest that only those players interested in these mods had you do them so it's kind of like asking Mercedes owners what should Fiat do to make their cars like a Mercedes?" Nothing wrong with any of your suggestions, but they almost all fall into personal preference.

limerot wrote:
- Wider nut on some models


How wide? Most non-reissue USA models have 1 11/16" wide nuts (Highway 1, American Special, American Standard, American Deluxe, the Beck sig). Not sure just how many Fender ever made in that '50s-'70s era when they offered 1 3/4" and even wider necks. It's all going to be driven by what the market demands; if there isn't enough demand for wider necks then they aren't going to make them on the production line.

limerot wrote:
- Push in arm tremolo system on most strats


I've had a couple of Don Grosh strat-styles with the Wilkinson bent-saddle six-screw trem with the push-in arm; those guitars were frankly among the most stable strat-types I've ever played. I would credit that to Grosh, not the trem. Just slapping this bridge on an MIM Standard isn't going to fix everything; a good set-up would also do wonders. Also the Wilkinson is a cheaper bridge; it has a fairly crappy pot-metal block. A solid steel block would do wonders for this bridge (not sure if anyone is making one for it yet).


limerot wrote:
- Staggered locking tuners on most strats


It's a good idea; however, it's going to come down to costs which is why they only have locking tuners on the American Deluxes. Also, some people want vintage style, some people don't. Those 2 Groshs I mention above had non-locking Kluson-style tuners and they were more stable than any guitar I've ever had with locking tuners EXCEPT for a James Tyler (which had a Wilkinson VSV 2-post trem and Sperzels). Again, it's set-up and taking care in building the guitars. Of course don't forget that Grosh and Tyler build 200-300 guitars per year; Fender probably builds far more than that per day.

limerot wrote:
- Staggered tuners on most teles


Good idea but shouldn't be necessary - if the Grosh strat-style can stay in tune with non-locking vintage tuners then so can a Tele. Frankly I'll take split-post vintage tuners over standard tuners any day - but that's just me.


limerot wrote:
- Compensated intonation sadles on most vintage type tele bridges


Definite no-brainer on this one; they should be standard on things like the Highway 1 and American Special Teles and should be in the case with the reissues. Sorry, but a reissue should be true to it's year, and the player/buyer should know this going in, but it should have the modern parts - just like they throw in the modern wiring kit and the 6-saddle bridge on the Teles and the 5-way switch on the Strats.

limerot wrote:
- Truss rod access at the headstock on most Fenders


They do; all modern Fenders have this. The reissues do not - see my comment above: they should remain true to the year they are trying to represent. Again, when you buy one you know that going in.

limerot wrote:
- Two strap pins in the rear position on most Fenders


Nope. That's a personal thing. I for one hate the way a guitar hangs from either of those buttons. I've not owned an Anderson (or an old Schecter) with these and would actually order an Anderson with a single strap button.

limerot wrote:
- Evertune bridge on some models


I have only seen an article on this in a Guitar Player magazine. Looks interesting but it's pretty new for a large manufacturer to take on at this time.

limerot wrote:
- True Temperament fretting system on some models


http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

I haven't tried one of these; just curious - how do the bent frets impact string bending?

I've had guitars with Buzz Feiten tuning (a Suhr), guitars with compensated nuts (EBMMs), and with their own "sweetened" temperment (PRS, Melancon). Due to the scale it's hard to compare a PRS to anything else. I didn't care for the Suhr but I also wound up not liking the wood combo I ordered so I can't judge the BF system.

Frankly I didn't notice too much difference between the EBMMs I had with the compensated nuts and the one I had without the compensated nut - other than the ones with the plain nut (a 2004 Silhouette Special and a 2004 SUB 1) held tuning better than the newer ones with the compensated nut when using the trem. A well made, well set up guitar is going to play pretty well in tune, plus as a player over years you kind of compensate for yourself by the way you play.

Very thought provoking; the technology is always changing.


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:41 pm
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Wow John C! Your points almost mirror mine in the very first response to the OP in this thread. Guess that makes both of us wrong in the OP's eyes. Or at least technology fearing dinosaurs. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:47 pm
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limerot wrote:
I am a little tired of 'new' models from Fender with just some minor cosmetic differences.

And to bad Fender won't make a wider nut neck, when they have so many production models to choose from, too.

Strat and teles are very good guitars, but the strat will be a better guitar with some permanent changes. The vintage tremolo from Wilkinson, with the push in arm, are so much better than the models from Fender. The feel is much more positive with no wobble in the trem arm. And it looks vintage too. One thing that every guitar with a straight headstock should not have, is non staggered tuners with the friction increasing string tree. Bending strings behind the nut is so much easier with no string tree. You can actually do it. And with staggered locking tuners and no string tree, the strat will stay in tune better.

One small thing that every guitar should have, is two strap pins in the rear position. How many Gibsons have broken headstocks after falling over? Any guitar repair woman would agree that there are many. Same with Fenders with cosmetic damages after accidents from falling over.

And one thing that puzzles me, is why on earth do guitarmakers still continue to make guitarnecks with truss rod access at the rear of the neck? This should be banned by law. I have absolutely NO sympathy with the old school congregation of guitar players that insist of the vintage way of doing inferior technical solutions.

Fender models with some of these parts/modifications, would make a good Fender a better Fender:

- Wider nut on some models
- Push in arm tremolo system on most strats
- Staggered locking tuners on most strats
- Staggered tuners on most teles
- Compensated intonation sadles on most vintage type tele bridges
- Truss rod access at the headstock on most Fenders
- Two strap pins in the rear position on most Fenders
- Evertune bridge on some models
- True Temperament fretting system on some models

Tor


Look at the tuners and bridge. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:48 pm
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You are correct pappawookee, if there were only perfect guitars out there, we would make less money as guitar tech's. But that is a different question/answer than my original question in this tread.

To me, it is not fun to play a guitar that is not in tune or unstable when you bring the guitars to and from different inviroments with different temperature or humidity. As a guitar tech, I have seen many Fenders and other guitars with a 'soft' neck. These guitars can be very good sound-wise, but a nightmare to keep in tune. There are a lot of professionals that do not bring out good sounding guitars to a gig, because the instrument will not be in tune. Locking tuners or not. It is just a simple fact that guitars are organic, and react to their inviroments. A very good sounding tele that can only be used in a controlled inviroment, is no fun.

The link is a video with a professional guitar player that had an unstable old 335. And he decided to go for an Evertune bridge on that guitar. I suspect that the fun-factor increased for him. (To mount an Evertune bridge to a vintage instrument? If he really wanted to use that guitar on the road, why not. But it was a drastic maneuver. I have sold my vintage Fenders, but I would not have done that on one of them, so I agree with the vintage 'nerds'). But the Fender tele that one buys tomorow, may have a 'soft' neck. If that guitar had an Evertune bridge, it would not matter, because true innovation helped that guitar to overcome its weakness.

http://fenderguitar.4u-today.com/watch- ... evita.html

If you own a Fender tele that keeps the tuning, but with bad intonation, a similar Fender tele with compensated saddles will help with that problem. To me, it is a mystery why Fender does not offer the saddles like on the Danny Gatton tele to most of their vintage tele models. Or Wilkinson's. It is fun to have the reissue models, but they will always be inferior to the more thought thru versions. No one from a neutral standpoint would choose an inferior model when they can have a model that does not inherent the weaknesses from the reissue models. And to be frank, the reissues have some. Let it look vintage, but without the drawbacks. Fender got a great heritage, and should make reissues for the old guys, but for the new players, the future players, they must innovate to survive.

To bad Fender does not seem to understand that there is a marked for a 'tweaked' series of guitars with sensible prices and solutions from the real word point of view, and the newest superior analogue innovations that is available in guitar parts. Let these guitar get their newest colours in the next catalogue, but let them be the best they can be.


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:07 pm
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limerot wrote:
- Push in arm tremolo system on most strats


I've had a couple of Don Grosh strat-styles with the Wilkinson bent-saddle six-screw trem with the push-in arm; those guitars were frankly among the most stable strat-types I've ever played. I would credit that to Grosh, not the trem. Just slapping this bridge on an MIM Standard isn't going to fix everything; a good set-up would also do wonders. Also the Wilkinson is a cheaper bridge; it has a fairly crappy pot-metal block. A solid steel block would do wonders for this bridge (not sure if anyone is making one for it yet).

The Wilkinson comes in several versions, incl one with a steel block.

limerot wrote:
- Staggered tuners on most teles


Good idea but shouldn't be necessary - if the Grosh strat-style can stay in tune with non-locking vintage tuners then so can a Tele. Frankly I'll take split-post vintage tuners over standard tuners any day - but that's just me.

When the string tree is removed, bending behind the nut gives one more range. But you need staggered tuners, and you eliminate the friction from the string tree at the same time. A small but sensible improvement, and can have a big influence om some guitars, tuning-wise.


limerot wrote:
- True Temperament fretting system on some models


http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

I haven't tried one of these; just curious - how do the bent frets impact string bending?

Very thought provoking; the technology is always changing.[/quote]

The True Temperament fretting system feels like any other guitar, one can bend stings like a normal guitar, everything is like a normal guitar. You only have perfect intonation. Really big cred to the inventor Anders Thidell.


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Post subject: Re: Conservative production models from Fender
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:13 pm
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limerot wrote:
If you own a Fender tele that keeps the tuning, but with bad intonation, a similar Fender tele with compensated saddles will help with that problem. To me, it is a mystery why Fender does not offer the saddles like on the Danny Gatton tele to most of their vintage tele models. Or Wilkinson's. It is fun to have the reissue models, but they will always be inferior to the more thought thru versions. No one from a neutral standpoint would choose an inferior model when they can have a model that does not inherent the weaknesses from the reissue models. And to be frank, the reissues have some. Let it look vintage, but without the drawbacks. Fender got a great heritage, and should make reissues for the old guys, but for the new players, the future players, they must innovate to survive.


You really don't get it, do you? Have you bothered to spend any time on this website researching the features available on the various Fender guitars? Somehow I doubt it, otherwise you wouldn't keep harping on locking tuners, staggered tuners, bridge saddles, etc. Take a look at all of the pickup and switching options available on the different Fender guitars. You claim you are a guitar tech, yet by the sound of it you don't have the foggiest notion on how to get a Fender guitar, regardless of the model or features, to play in tune or intonate properly, or you are just to lazy to bother, taking the easy way out by blameing "soft necks". Instead, you find it necessary to rely on overly exotic and expensive "fixes" that have a limited market and will do nothing but unnecessarily drive up the cost of the guitar. If you are so down on Fender's "drawbacks" (you already admitted to selling your "flawed" vintage guitars), then I suggest you only buy your guitars from the small, special luthiers that cater to the whims of nitpickers like you. You and your many customers who demand similar "improvements" will be much happier with their guitars and lives.

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