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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:34 pm
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jerde wrote:
jeffnles1 wrote:
That's a strange anomoly in the grain but I wouldn't call it a knot. Not sure what to call it. Looks like it was definately slab sawed instead of quarter sawn. Could be where a brach came out of the log but if it is a knot it sure is a tight one.

Glad it got worked out for you though.

Jeff


So if the tree is standing up, you think it was sawn vertically rather than horizontally?


They are all cut vertically, or at least they should be. Slab or "riff" sawn is the most common where the log is laid on the saw, usually heavy band saw, and just ran through cutting off boards or slabs of a given thickness.

Quarter sawn is different where the log is cut into quarters and then the slabs are cut off of those quarters. the grain patterns of the two are much different and distinctive.

Yours, as with most Fender necks I've seen was slab cut. No real difference in tone or sutibility to the task, just an observation on my part.

The grain pattern you saw was explained by Ceri and others just grain patterns in that particular piece of lumber. Quite interesting grain pattern, very pretty. Trees are living things and lumber came from that living thing. No 2 are exactly alike. Just like all of us, trees are unique and have various warts, freckles and imperfections (well, you all have imperfections, I don't :D ).

Seriously, it's not a knot that I can see, just a piece of grain.

here's a diagram of the difference and it shows how your grain pattern most likely ended up on the neck.
http://www.frudua.com/quarter_cut_vs_slab_cut.htm


Jeff


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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:41 am
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Jeff[/quote]

here's a diagram of the difference and it shows how your grain pattern most likely ended up on the neck.
http://www.frudua.com/quarter_cut_vs_slab_cut.htm


Jeff[/quote]

Nice graphic, btw, explains it perfectly. . .


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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:16 am
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53magnatone wrote:
As I have followed this thread since my earlier post, the misconception is still prevalent. In your 1st photo below of the neck....That is not a knot. those are growth rings showing. As a tree grows up and outward, growth rings are the yearly log ( :lol: ) of it's age.
If you look at a cut log. radiating outward from the center are the growth rings. light and dark delineations which are not of the same thickness depending on that years nutrients. Some years will be rich others not. thus some rings are thicker than others.
As has been posted earlier with the bowl analogy, your neck was cut out of a log and that particular ring which many are mistakenly calling a knot is just a section of that ring.
Rings in trees do not grow evenly along the lenght of the tree. they may be closer to the center at 4 ft or further at 6 ft. If you look at a live tree, any tree that is fairly straight, you can see that the tree itself is not of one diameter and thus varies from trunk upwards.


Well, whatever it is, that is the very spot where the rosewood part of the fretboard was warped. Both techs pointed out that the knot (or grain pattern in wood) is what very well is most certainly causing the upward warp in the rosewood. The second tech was then able to heat up the neck and press it which took care of the problem.

Someone asked about cost. He charged me $30 bucks to do the heat/press on the neck.


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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 6:22 am
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From the photo's you have given us, if you could rotate the neck 90 degrees so a fret profile photo could be viewed, also from the 21st fret looking up the neck, focused on around the 7th fret to the nut.

I suspect that pressing the wood with heat is only a temporary quick fix, I still believe that your problem is with the rosewood fingerboard, or the section of frets above and below the 3rd fret, not the maple part of the neck. In all likelyhood, the problem will reappear and persist.
Because of the way a neck is cut from a log with the grain running lenght wise, it cannot bubble up in a tiny area between two frets. it would bubble up over say 3 or 4 frets. But this is not what you have.

I suspect that (1) your fretboard needs leveling, this would mean sanding down the fretboard flat, ( frets would have to be removed ) or (2) the 3rd fret is actually loose from either it's slot being too wide and the fret tangs are not gripping or (3) your guitar is in need of a fret job, dressing. this would consist of removing all frets, shaving/sanding the entire fretboard flat. (by flat I mean relative to the curvature of the fretboard, sanding out the imperfections so that a new set of frets can be installed, dressed.

If it is just the 3rd fret being loose and rising up, then it can be glued back in place ( with super glue and clamped than dressed.
I would suggest getting a hold of Dan Erlewine's book " Guitar Player's Repair Guide " 3rd edition. There is a thorough section on fretwork and neck, possible ailments and solutions.
This should actually be a requirement for anyone with a guitar, if for no other reason than to have an idea and a starting point when dealing with someone who is going to repair or adjust your guitar. Also it allows you to work on your guitar yourself according to your own judgment.

By my response it can be infered that I take " Tech's" with a grain of salt. Mainly because I have been a finish carpenter for 25+ years, creating interior custom built-in's and remodeling from sill to ridge. I have also been repairing, rebuilding, completely rebuilding refinishing guitars for as long as I have had them, mostly out of necessity and curiosity.
I also have a good friend, Matt D'Ambrosio a true luthier, an excellent Archtop builder who when I have a question about guitar building or repair is the one I ask if need be. There is also John @ Wakefield Music who is not afraid to refer me or any customer for that matter to someone more capable when it comes to challenging issues on build, rebuild or repair of a valuable instrument.

BTW were the two tech's from the same shop, that question was posted earlier in the thread but is a question that you should think about if it applies.

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:15 pm
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Hi jerde: just doing a Forum catch-up - very fascinated and perplexed by this unusual thread. This in particular:
jerde wrote:
I talked to the second repairman this morning about the warp issue I'm having. He also came up with the conclusion that it was the knot that was causing the fretboard to warp up and said that it is a fairly common issue. He offered me a solution this time by saying that heating up the neck and then pressing it can straighten the warp out. I told him to go ahead and give it a go and that I would be in a few hours later to have him do some other maintenance on another strat of mine.

When I got there he should me the neck and behold the warp had been pressed out successfully! This repairman was a older guy probably in his mid 60's and I asked him how long he had been working on guitars and he said over 35 years. I wasn't able to get the pictures of the warp in the fretboard because by the time I got there he had already pressed it out, but I do a pic of the big knot that caused the warp (and a second smaller knot) in the maple of my strat neck. See below...

Image

Many things surprise me about that, not the least being a "tech" with 35 years experience who doesn't know what a knot is - and is not. No knot to be seen in your photos, as many have pointed out. I'm also wondering what this heat treatment was that he managed to accomplish in the space of a few hours?

It is absolutely true that you can "re-set" the fibres of wood by applying moisture, usually in the form of steam. I know a boat builder who does the most amazing bendy things to timber by steaming it and then working with it very fast whilst it is as soft as rubber. The problem with doing that on a guitar neck is the lacquer, which exists precisely to prevent moisture from entering and leaving the wood too quickly. To get steam in there you could take all the lacquer off, steam and re-set the neck and then later relacquer it. But since we probably don't want to mess with the lacquer the alternative is to do the job very, very slowly.

Here is a (non-Fender) neck with a warp in the middle (in this case a backbow) which I reset by clamping it in such a way as to apply a moderate counter-bend and then leaving it for a couple of months in a convenient utility room where it was subjected to repeated cycles of hot and cold, moisture and dryness from the use of washing and tumble drying machines in that small space. I checked the neck a few days after first clamping it and it just sprang back into its unwanted backbow the moment the cramp was removed. So I left it there for eight or ten weeks, by which time the fibres in the wood appeared indeed to have reset themselves into the new, desired shape. The neck stayed put and to this day (years later) has not warped backwards again. The treatment worked.

But it took time.

Image

I'd love to know how your fella did it in an afternoon, and I'd love to know if it stays fixed.

The interesting thing about the neck in my photo is that the warp did indeed occur at a point where the grain of the wood subtly changed direction, rather as yours does. It might be helpful if we could see inside the grain of your neck, and since you probably don't want to saw it up for us I luckily have a piece of timber that closely resembles your grain pattern and allows us a better chance to look at what is going on.

Here is a quarter-sawn wedge from a log of close-grained Swiss alpine spruce:

Image

You can see how close and straight the grain is on the front of that billet - that wins it an AAA grading from my supplier. A close look at the end grain shows that the growth rings run exactly at right angles to the face of the timber, and this cut is known as "quarter-sawn":

Image

It comes from cutting the log into a series of wedges, like slices of a cake, which is a time consuming and expensive thing for a sawmill to do. (Most Fender necks are not taken from quarter-sawn timber: they are slab-sawn or rift-sawn, and none the worse for it. Rock maple is generally a very stable timber.)

If we look at the back of the billet we see that on this side the grain is not quite so straight. No problem, it'll never be seen because it'll be hidden inside the instrument:

Image

In itself this grain pattern does not present a stability issue when used for the soundboard of an acoustic instrument. However, at one point near the edge of the billet there is a small convolution in the grain, and the supplier has pencilled lines onto the wood to indicate that it might be a good idea to cut the soundboard in such a way as to avoid this bit of the material (it is normal for tonewood suppliers to helpfully draw on billets to hint at where they think the best cut can be made. In fact, I think I shall move the violin's outline a little further to the left from what the supplier has suggested to avoid the convolution entirely):

Image

The bit of this that is relevant to your guitar neck, jerde, is that if we look at the wide edge of the billet we can see how that convolution produces an effect on the surface very similar to that on the back of your instrument:

Image

In other words, what is going on inside that neck of yours is a slight convolution in the grain similar to what we can see in this spruce billet. This would very seldom present any sort of stability issue - I've seen numerous necks with just this sort of pattern in them. It is simply sheer bad luck that yours has chosen to warp at that point. It's very rare and impossible to predict.

I'd be most fascinated to hear whether your neck now stays straight or whether the warp re-appears. If it does, it may be possible for a (real) luthier to do a better repair on it, as I previously showed. Alternatively, regardless whether you bought the guitar new or not, Fender will replace a defective neck (contrary to what some people will tell you) if you apply to them via an Authorised Fender Dealer. However, you will have to pay for that service: since you don't have the receipt it will not be done under warranty.

Contact Consumer Services via the contacts page of this website for more info.

Good luck - C

EDIT: spelling

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Last edited by Ceri on Tue May 17, 2011 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:39 pm
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ceri

not many on this forum would go to great lengths that you do.
thank you for your on going support to us. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:31 pm
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way cool jr wrote:
ceri

not many on this forum would go to great lengths that you do.
thank you for your on going support to us. :wink:

:D

Ceri salutes politely, fastens his crash helmet beneath his chin and rides off in search of further guitarish problems to tackle.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:10 pm
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Intriguing stuff!

Ceri wrote:
Here is a quarter-sawn wedge from a log of close-grained Swiss alpine spruce:

Image

Which reminds me...

I'm building a 9ft Strat for a client who's the face of a well known brand of sweet corn and he's just decided he wants his trem blocked. :wink:

Also, the violin with the duff piezo I was due to look at is now living in Spain. So no crap maracas this time :|

Andy

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:13 pm
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Andybighair wrote:
Also, the violin with the duff piezo I was due to look at is now living in Spain. So no crap maracas this time :|

Andy, did we ever find out whether that violin had the piezo in the bridge or a different system?

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:21 pm
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Ceri wrote:
Andybighair wrote:
Also, the violin with the duff piezo I was due to look at is now living in Spain. So no crap maracas this time :|

Andy, did we ever find out whether that violin had the piezo in the bridge or a different system?

Cheers - C

Nope. No Idea. To be honest I'm quite relieved. :D

Nice bit of spruce by the way.

Andy

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:40 pm
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Andybighair wrote:
Nice bit of spruce by the way.

Yes indeed! :D

Spruce for violin soundboards is often a narrower piece sliced and book-matched. But that is a single billet wide enough for a one-piece front. Nice!

So now of course I'm hunting around for a single piece of AAA flamed European maple big enough for the back and with the right amount of figure - neither too much nor too little. Just to give the instrument a consistent flavour, visually. Not having much luck as yet, but there's time...

Get in! 8)

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:25 pm
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Once again, Ceri just adds a little food for thought.... :shock: :idea: :?:

But... I still would like to see pics of the fretboard, from the nut to the 5-7th fret, I'm hoping the OP will oblige...Thank You

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:49 am
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53magnatone wrote:
Once again, Ceri just adds a little food for thought.... :shock: :idea: :?:

Hi 53. What's the :?: emoticon asking? Any questions shall happily be answered, if I can. :)

And yes, I'd like to see the front of the fingerboard too. More photos please, jerde!

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:54 am
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im suprised this thread is still going.

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Post subject: Re: knot in the maple doing damage to my fender strat neck.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:14 am
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Ceri wrote:
Andybighair wrote:
Nice bit of spruce by the way.

Yes indeed! :D

Spruce for violin soundboards is often a narrower piece sliced and book-matched. But that is a single billet wide enough for a one-piece front. Nice!

So now of course I'm hunting around for a single piece of AAA flamed European maple big enough for the back and with the right amount of figure - neither too much nor too little. Just to give the instrument a consistent flavour, visually. Not having much luck as yet, but there's time...

Feel free to keep us posted on this one. I'd be especially interested in the carving of the top. Looks exciting.

Ceri wrote:
Get in! 8)

...And down with your bad self! 8)

Andy

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