Have we ever seen any of the nuts you have made?

Have you experimented with compensated ones?

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My other guitar is a Strat.

I wonder what the "greenies" think about all the trees cut for the wood our guitars are made of? ...you know DEAD trees!
Who needs a hug or approval from them anyway?

Mark, please ignore the postcount mate. That signifies nothing more than 'big mouth syndrome'. Post away with differing opinion. I won't get het up or upset. I simply ask that others have the same attitude. As long as we can all stick to that, we're all good.

Now as for the resonator difference. All I'd ask is you to try a brass nut, then bone. On the same guitar.

I still maintain if the nut be cut properly. The break angle of the nut slot being clean and definite. There is no way it can affect the sound of the string. The breakpoint being at the tip of the edge nearest the first fret. The string is dead behind that breakpoint.

Now because OrvilleOwner mentioned the Earvanna compensated nut, I'll drag out the pictures of my own work in low end intonation at the nut end.

Here's my compensated design for the Strat



The measurements drawn out taken back from the first fret then figured from the back edge of the nut.



Which turns into this



Then this



Till it sits in the neck, like this



Notice how it shelves over the fretboard towards the first fret.

That really is the picture I wanted to show. Reason being it explains better how a string cannot resonate through the nut. If it did, we'd be tuning our guitars so that pitch happened at the tuner, not the nut. By moving the nut's breakpoints to different positions we can change how the strings relate to eachother. Because beyond that breakpoint towards the headstock plays no part in pitch, it can play no part in how the string vibrates.

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Hey it's a great idea 12Bar. Corian has got to be a lot easier to cut than bone. Think I'll be making a journey into town tomorrow.
Bone is absolutely horrible stuff to work with. All that yuk of getting the marrow out, degreasing it, boiling it up, the smell getting everywhere making you gag.
Then the real stink happens when you start cutting it.

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Hey all . . . I was only taking a dig at Tom, and playing on his name with the "hugs"
Sorry Tom, no offence meant at all just stirring a little!

I think we should make guitars out of greenies.

There's not enough green guitars in the world.

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OK Nik, I don't mind a friendly spar in my pursuit of knowledge, so here goes

I'm finding it difficult to believe that the nut material plays no part in the sound qualities.
I don't quite understand how your photos demonstrate this, but I'm pretty sure a softer material will have a dampening effect. This is not only true in music, but in the airbags in your car and the soles of your shoes.

The differences between bone, brass and plastic may be minute to most ears, but I believe there is a difference. If you made a nut out of titanium or some super-hard mineral, would it not sound different to one made of hard rubber or soft wood ??

OK, What we have is a wire stretched over over 2 points (saddle and nut) and secured at the ends (bridge block and tuner). I hope we agree, at least on this.

Let's make a good ol' fashioned "Diddly Bow".
Just nail a bit of wire to a fence post or somewhere on your porch or balcony (we call it a Verandah downunder)
The wire can be tightened with various objects slid under the strings and moved toward the nails. Copper pipe, beef bone, glass bottles - all these "nuts" have a distinctive sound. Whether this due to the material resonating or dampening, I am not sure.

My point can be easily explained with slide guitar techniques.
What is a guitar slide other than a moveable nut ?
Surely anyone can hear the difference between a glass bottleneck and a brass tube.

Nuts eh ?
Am I nuts ?

Hey Niki, If you are really interested in Mammoth ivory, here's some I have.



The bone process you mentioned doesn't sound too bad to me, but I'm a trained Chef I guess Taxidermy would not suit you as a hobby
The mammoth ivory though, is a beautiful material to work. I use it to make picks and for inlaying which I'm trying to master. I never thought of making a nut with it and doubt that I have the skill. It has a distinctive prehistoric smell when worked, not too offensive though.

Goodonyaz

....Mark.

PS. the darker brown ivory in the photo is really hard with a lovely texture. A nut made with this piece would have excellent sound qualities

I don't think I have posted any. They've been pretty basic nuts (and only a handful.)
I pretty much just cloned the existing nut on the few I've made.

Nik's posts have made me want to try making compensated nuts, but i have yet to actually motivate myself into doing the work.

Nik, a friend and I made a couple bone nuts years ago. To me the defining aspect of the operation was the smell. Burning hair times a thousand.

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I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

Mark, sorry I just can't hear it. I can hear enough to sort out low end intonation. I can tune to concertpitch by ear. I just can't hear that nut material sounds different. I can't hear any dampening effect. Everything about cutting the breakangle on the nut slot is to ensure that the nut doesn't dampen string vibration.
Even still it's not a factor as soon as you move up the fretboard. You play a lot of open notes, most people dont.
I still maintain it's a lot of hype written about nothing, especialy in the world of electric guitars. Where it's minimal effect on string vibration, at the point furthest from the pickups does not play any recognizable part in how the pickup sees the string.


So lets see some of the inlay work Mark? Beauty for the sake of beauty in my book. I'm intriuged.

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Hee-hee - I suspect that was either Nikininja or it was me. Or both - we've both made nuts from bits of the self-same lump of bone. This:



After boiling it down for several hours and sawing it up it looks like this:



Nick got one half of that and I kept the other. It's leg bone (supposedly the strongest) from one of these very beasts, who live in a field about a mile from my Summer Palace:



Since OrvilleOwner mentioned compensated nuts, that's what I used some of that material to make (actually, this one was a different bone, pre-owned, buried and dug up again by the neighbor's dog):















Job done:



And though I'm not much interested in the debate, for the record I use bone for the same reason Nick does, also the same reason Twelvebar uses Corian. It is easy to work, readily available and free.

People were using bone for nuts for centuries - because they didn't have plastic and related materials back then. It's about practicality, not tone black magic.

Cheers - C

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No problem man,it was 3:00 am and I couldn't sleep...so I thought I would mess with you a bit.

Ceri,
That bone nut looks cool,but I know nothing of the compensated type?
is that what it is?....why did you use that type and does the intonation have to be adjusted a great deal on the saddle?
It's early here and I can't wrap my head around why that design would be better than a standard nut.

OK Thanks Niki. I really don't know enough to continue to argue. A wise idiot knows when to shut up

The old National I was lucky enough to play had a brass nut. The owner had two more with bone nuts. Although they were slightly different models, the brass nutted one was miles ahead. For me personally, I use a brass slide, so the nut just seemed to complete the circle. Maybe it is more noticeable acoustically or maybe it's all in my head.

I don't have any Mammoth inlays on hand but here's some of me picks and small items.







Just for the sake of beauty, this stuff would make a fine nut.

Thanks ....Mark.

Hi RS: it was Nikininja that turned me on to compensated nuts. He made me one for my Telecaster and much to my frustration (because then my other guitars suddenly didn't sound quite so good) it really did improve my low position intonation audibly, so now I'm more and more taken with that type of nut. Here's the "Nikininja ruined all my guitars" thread about the nut he did for me:

viewtopic.php?t=23794

For those as don't know, the problem compensated nuts seek to address is that of low end intonation. The position of frets along the fingerboard is in fact a compromise as far as intonation in different keys is concerned. Violinists can adjust the "temperament" of their instrument by simply stopping the notes in slightly different places when playing in different keys. On Renaissance lutes the frets are often made from a loop of gut around the neck which is not fixed and can be slid slightly up or down the 'board to adjust the temperament between songs.

With modern guitar frets of course that is not possible, and so the positions the frets are installed in is calculated as a "least bad" compromise to suit all the keys as well as possible. To test how good that is for your own ear, tune the guitar with an electronic tuner and then play an open E chord. Let it ring, listen to it, and then play an open D chord. For many of us (and not only those with so-called perfect pitch) the D will sound slightly discordant compared to the E. If it does to you then what you are noticing is the effect of the imperfect positioning of guitar frets.

Compensated nuts work on some complicated mathematics to adjust the breaking point of the string at the nut end and so alter the intonation of the string, most noticeably on the first three or four fret positions. It still isn't perfect; in fact, it is a compromise built upon a compromise. But it is a bit better than a traditional straight edged nut.

The Buzz Feiten tuning system is one commercial version of the compensated nut idea; the Earvana nut is another (and much easier to use) solution to it. I don't pretend to understand the science of the thing: I just copied the breaking positions on mine from one of those commercial nuts. Nick however has gone deeply into the mathematics of it all and might be prepared to explain it to anyone who wants to know.

Here is the full version of my compensated nut making, from which the photos above were taken. For those as wish to try it for themselves:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30747&start=1320

It is enough of an improvement to my ear to make it worth the effort - but judging by how few players use one of the systems it obviously doesn't matter that much to most. Notably, Eric Johnson was not using a compensated nut last time I looked... ( ) It is worth remembering that all of our ears are schooled from the earliest age in the inaccuracies of guitar intonation, so most of us probably simply don't notice what's wrong with it most of the time, because we're used to it. So it then it doesn't matter and is not worth getting out pants twisted over.

But for anyone who is intrigued and would like to give it a try without going to the trouble of slaughtering cows, I heartily recommend the Earvana nut for Strat available from WD Music (.com and .co.uk). Fairly easy to fit and not too expensive. The saddles will then need to be reintonated, but only like doing a normal guitar setup. Good luck!

Cheers - C

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Mark, I'm not arguing mate. As I will always maintain. If you feel better for having it, it will make you more comfortable. If you're more comfortable, you'll play better. End of story.
So if it works for you, do it.

I too prefer a brass slide, why? It does sound different. Why? I think it's because the finish on it is imperfect. Allowing more of the string thats meant to be cut off to vibrate. I can't see that being a bonus for a nut slot though. Yep my perspex slide dampens the sound of the strings a bit. It may be because I'm too light fingered with it. Being used to having the weight of the brass do the work for me. It may be that the thing is too smooth.
Who knows? I know which I prefer for what applications.
Did you think that the resonator guitar you played may have just been a great guitar. Rez's are funny things. Half electric, half madness, half acoustic. You definitely hear the difference between a good one and a bad one though.
Could it be that if the thing had a plastic nut on it, it would have still sounded brilliant?

Anyways onto this.



As a man who greatly appreciates beauty, but isn't capable of creating much of it. That is the money shot. Brilliant. I can guarantee atleast one other person on this thread is wholly impressed with that work.

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