I have a question about fret crowning. I have an American Standard 9.5 with medium jumbo frets. I have leveled the frets and need to do the crowning. What is usually a recommended crown for frets- the more "rounded" style, or the semi-round "school bus" approach. I would appreciate any hints.

Also if anyone knows the best way to dress narrow vintage frets.
Thanks

The narrowest point of contact between string and fret will provide the most accurate intonation and note sustain.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY

A perfect half circle atop the fret is the better mix of comfort and accuracy.

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No no and no

Hi Chinaski, welcome to the Forum.

You started dressing your frets without knowing how to finish the job? Brave: I hope it's an old, worthless guitar...

Far as your question is concerned, in real life you don't get a much of a choice. You need to buy a fret crowning file and that will choose the curve of the crown for you. For an Am Std you need the medium/wide double edged file from this page:

http://www.stewmac.com/?PCR=1%3A100%3A1 ... rencyid=17

Or if you are somewhere else in the world similar files to those are usually available locally. Looking on Google or Ebay for Hosco fret crowning files is a good way to find what you need. If choosing a Hosco file you need the size Large for Fender's medium-jumbo frets.

For dressing the skinny vintage frets you mentioned you'd need either Stew-Mac's Narrow or Hosco's Small crowning files.

Alternatively to all this, some people prefer the old "quarter-round" file for fret dressing. I believe Forum user Nikininja uses that tool if memory serves, so maybe he'll look in and talk to you about it.

Now then. What are you planning to do about dressing your fret ends?

And if you get into terrible trouble, box smart and take that guitar to a luthier/tech who knows what they are doing. While there's still enough metal to put things right.

Good luck - C

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BTW that is in no way a contradiction or answer to Retroverbial's statement/answer.

I really shouldn't post whilst trying to dress the kids and get em out the door. Sorry, it just reads wrong.

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No no and no

Go to www.grizzly.com and look up the lutherie supplies. Then grab one of the fret files that has the 3 interchangeable burrs. They work very well!!!!! CAUTION : if you get one of these, ONLY file in the forward stroke! Do not "saw" it back and forth across the fret tops, you will ruin the file

Thank you for your posts everyone.
Ceri,
I have done a few fret jobs before on junk and i've emptied my bank account on tools from Stewart Mac.

The Am. Standard had perfectly leveled frets straight from the factory. I just need to crown them.
I have 3 files. The medium 3-corner file. The larger 3- corner (Cant) saw file, and the double-edged file with the grooved shape. Narrow one side/medium the other. I will use this narrow grooved file for the vintage frets I think.
I'm using the fret end dressing stick for the fret ends. I don't think i'll need to use this on the narrow files.



Does this mean the "school bus" style that Dan Erlewine speakes of?

Thanks again everone

No, I've never heard of the 'School Bus' technique. And in all honesty take most of what Erlewine says with a huge pinch of salt. He'd tell you the sky is green if it meant he sold a tool or book.

As Retroverbial said, the most accurate way you will crown frets, is to bring them to a minimal point. Where the string contacts the fret at the narrowest point. Minimal contact. That will provide the best intonation across the fretboard.

However if we just go filing them to a point it will make for a very uncomfortable playing guitar. As well as having all the problems of centering the tip of the point. And that is not what Retro' meant in his post.
So we go from triangle to the next best shape, the circle. You need the top of the fret to be as near a perfect half circle as possible to provide the most comfort and accuracy.

Not the most clear picture and in all honesty not the best fretwork I've done.



If I could get a good photo of my CS guitars frets that would show exactly what good frets are meant to look like. Perfectly rounded on top with no flat spots at all.
I strongly suggest you pay someone to show you what is needed.

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No no and no

I think i'll try the Cant saw file for this one. It gives a steeper cutting angle at the side of a fret. It leaves the thinnest line down the centre of the fret.

Stew Mac can be pricey for some of the specialty tools, oft times you can manufacture the same thing yourself easily and cheaply, as they sell a LOT of modified tools.



To be fair Niki, although he shills Stew Mac tools with almost every second sentence, he very often explains cheaper alternatives, and how he made the tools he uses in his videos. take for instance the notched straight edge, like yours. they sell a vastly over priced version from their store, but I made a couple because in material of his he explained how to do it yourself.

They sell a super expensive rig to hold a guitar while you paint it, but in his videos he shows how to set yourself up using only scrap lumber (the method i show in my refinishing threads.) So although he gives you every opportunity to impover yourself with their catalog if you pay attention he also lets you know how to do stuff on the cheap (my paint rig cost me about $0.11 it used 4 wood screws, and some scrap.)

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I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

You might want to reconsider this as the more triangularly peaked a fret is, the faster/easier it is for the strings to mash them down due to the extremely narrow surface contact.

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You dig?

Which I suppose must be what this thing about a "school bus roof" shape is about?



Hi again Chinaski: fair enough. On re-reading my previous post I see I probably expressed myself more bluntly than I should. Thank you for not taking offence at that, apologies if any was given, and to make amends let's try and give your question more serious thought.

I actually have Dan Erlewine's book on fretting yet I don't remember hearing that "school bus roof" description before. I must read the book again. However, I presume the shape it roughly describes would be meant to address the issue Martian is pointing out: that if the fret's sides rise too steeply to a very narrow top then only a little wear will start to cause notches to be created by the strings. That's a very reasonable concern.

The fact of the matter is that the position of most of the frets is rather a crude approximation meant to produce the least bad compromise as far as temperament across the whole fingerboard and in all keys is concerned. In fact, some of the frets are way off where they should be for perfect intonation. Fascinatingly, many Renaissance lutes have frets made from non-fixed loops of gut which can be slid a little distance up and down the neck, and it is normal for a lutenist to do exactly that when moving between music in different keys, sweetening the temperament for the specific key in which he is to play.

We can't do any of that with hammered-in guitar frets, so instead they are positioned to sound as best as possible under the circumstances. And the fact is, most of us never notice the difference most of the time. Our ears are not perfect enough, and they have become accustomed to the compromises of modern musical pitch.

And the upshot of all that is that the exact position along the neck’s scale length for the fret top is less crucial than some would imagine. There is a margin of error for the correct intonation point, and that in turn means the top of the fret doesn't have to be aiming for one "perfect" position in space. And that in turn means the top of the fret can be a soft curve rather than a point - which is why Dan's "school bus" shape would work perfectly well.

HOWEVER. All of that is really only of academic interest. When crowning fret tops with the fret file which most of us use the final shape is more or less a given, determined by the small concave radius carved into the file. For those as don't know and care to, here is one of my fret crowning files. You can see the inverted curved groove along its edge that meets the fret top to produce the rounded shape on a newly levelled fret:



Chinaski, I expect you know what most of us do next. We draw on the top of the frets with a fat marker pen, as seen on the right hand side of the next picture. Then we have at those frets with the file, and because we've chosen it so that its concave radius is a little steeper than that of the top of the fretwire it removes metal from the lower edges first. The more we file, the higher the line of metal removed, and the line of remaining ink gets narrower and narrower. As seen on the two frets to the left of the photo:



In real life we don't need to worry too much about intonation points or the steepness of the sides or any of that stuff. All we need to do is work away with that crowning file so that the ink line gets thinner evenly across the length of the fret - and choose the right moment to stop. You can see where I've stopped in the picture above: going a little further would leave the top of the fret very pointy indeed; stopping sooner would give even more of Dan's bus roof effect.

The picture shows my choice: you must make your own.

Was all of that of any use at all to you?

If it is of further interest, the rest of my fret dressing on the neck seen above can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30747&start=1230

Earlier on that same thread you can see that neck being made and the frets being installed. And tons of other silly stuff too.

It's a bonny life if you don't weaken.

Cheers - C

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The "school bus shape" is where the sides of the fret are ground vertical (perpendicular to the fingerboard) and then you have the rounded fret on top. Look at any yellow school bus squarely from the back of it, that's what is meant.

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You dig?

Thanks everyone,
Good pictures. I've finished the crowning. I have the point very much like in your photo, Ceri. Thank you for the information, too.

Towards the end of the crowning process, I noticed that the side of the frets looked quite dull. The overall contact of the file on the sides of the frets didn't have the same feel from previous crowning that i've done. On closer examination I realised that the sides of the frets have laquer on them- the new maple necks have a laquer finish on the board. It is diificult to get off. Maybe it will come of in the polishing process.

i agree here, dan does preach about keeping the costs down on some tools and even shows you how to make some things too. if its a special tool to do a very complex job he will point you to a tool for the job.
one has to realize, a good bit of the tools stew sales are a dan erlewine design.
so yeah, if i was righting a book i sure would shamelessly pitch a few of my tools too along the way. nothing wrong with that ya know.

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63supro
"The good thing is in a club situation, most of the patrons are trashed and really can't tell the difference."