Hi again Mark and Blerttles and all,
I think my answer above covers the authenticity issue as well is it can be without someone having the instrument in their hands. The sad truth is that someone with enough attention to detail can copy whatever they wish to and get pretty close....the irony of that is that if you're going to take the time and trouble to get that close....why not just sell it for what it is? Beats me.

AS also addressed somewhere (John C probably knows) the only models i know which had a bit of MIJ but assembled in the U.S. were some of the first HM Strats....never to my knowledge on any other model. Regardless, again as stated above.......MIJ label or not they clearly bear the markings of MIJ not U.S.

-----WHY------- is often a question not easily answered here....and for that matter many other places. I'd like to know why Leo used Slotted screws on the 52 Tele cause they are a total pain.......I don't know....did Phillips head exist in 52....seems like they did.

But addressing the ----WHY----- on these, Blertles post sounds plausible and I know that FMIC's position about anything imported, whether it be MIM or MIJ or MIC, is to NOT dwell on it or Market it by Country of Origin, but let them stand on their own.
In other words, we've always been forthcoming if somebody asks, but we're also not making a big deal of it.

So, though i understand........its not looking as "grey area" to me as it evidently is to others . If it smells like a fish, has scales like a fish, breathes water like a fish, has markings like a fish........then its probably a relative of mine ;o)

Cheers,
rob

_________________
______________
rob Schwarz
Director,Fender Customer Service
Proudly serving Fender Customers
for over 30 years

Rob,

With all due respect, there clearly are grey areas.....

First and foremost, I bought mine new, off the wall at a large store from the store manager (who was a friend), who advised me that it was a U.S.A. model. I was charged a U.S.A. model price, and given a U.S.A. case. There were several others of the Kahlered models on the wall, with some USA standard trem models. I had looked at them all and settled on the white kahlered model. I'm an inurance fraud investigator,...I remember details.

I never noted the lack of an origination sticker or decal for over twenty years, because, I never had to concern myself with it.

No one wants to say that Fender pulled "a fast one" on their customers, but if it's Japanese,....then a "fast one" was indeed pulled on me,.....by Fender.

I do not accept that hundreds of guitars went out without origination stickers "by accident" (There are FAR more than 20 to 30 known examples of these guitars). the decision to leave them off (decision...) was by design. It's the only time in the known history of the company that has occurred to our knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong).

So the question becomes "why". To me there is only one rational answer, a (at least to some extent) hybrid-origin instrument.

The HM's you mentioned were being produced at roughly the same time, correct?

I'm a curious person. A curious person who may have been misled. GIven the lack of an origination sticker,....we cannot then place the blame on the vendor, can we?

Another explanation is that it was a "grey market" item. If it was never intended for sale outside of the Japanese market and your vendor imported some himself, then it was the vendor who pulled a fast one on you.

Yet another explanation is that the vendor made a mistake. He sold it as the wrong thing, at the wrong price.

_________________
Member #26797
My other guitar is a Strat.

Nope. Large chain store. This was not gray market. Also, show me where that ever occurred in Fender history. Ever...

As for vendor mistake, again, exceptionally unlikely. An origin marking NOT placed on a Fender instrument. Think about that Orville. You don't think that was by design? Seriously????? You can't now, nor could you then, buy ANY kind of instrument without an origin marking, let alone from a high profile manufacturer like Fender.

P.S. why,...why,...why would it be difficult for Fender to request documentation from Fuji gen on this. All you'd have to do is send a serial number range and request build info versus parts shipment. They either have it or they don't. It's that freaking' easy.

G'day Rob, I think the point of all this is, many people are still buying these "Fenders", not really knowing what they are.
You may have missed the email reply to Geckochameleon from FujiGen ,a few pages back -

Email From FujiGen

> Thank you for your inquiry about FGN guitars. Unfortunately, we can't
> disclose any information about Fender stuffs due to our OEM confidential
> contracts with some OEM brand companies. If you'd like to solve the issue,
> you should ask Fender USA directly Anyway, we've been making Fender Japan
> (marked "Made in Japan") products until 1994.
>
> Best regards,
> FGN Guitars Japan

So we're asking you Rob If there's no more you can do, well so be it.

Thanks, and keep up the research Geckochameleon.
Goodonya ...Mark.

Wow, lots of outrageous claims!



I don't have to think about it. I can go hold a few without such markings whenever I desire.

Tell us what straw you want and we'll put it within your grasp.

_________________
Member #26797
My other guitar is a Strat.

Hi!

This box used to contain a comment, but was edited to delete same.

Hey, could we not let my thread degenerate into a battle of egos after all this time? Thanks...Mark.

It sounds like no one is going to know the full truth. The term , 'made in USA' can mean many different things.. But does it really matter.. That's the question. I would like to know if it was listed as a 'made in USA' by either Fender or the retailer. If they were, then there would be frontline catalogues or promotional stuff on the internet detailing these.

If it wasn't, then you would assume the retailer would have had either their wires crossed on this model, or they would've marketed this intentionally USA made. But it doesn't say "made in USA or Japan either.. So it could mean that it could be either. My opinion is that they were made in Japan, without the country of origin label. There would be, after all this time very little recourse on this with the retailer.

So as we know Fender has no records before the early 90's, and Fujigen doesn't have records either (and it was a loong time ago so we can't blame either of them) no-one will know unless someone who worked at either company who was privy to that info comes forward. However, the previous post I made seems to have come from an ex-fender employee who was in contact with Fujigen at the time, so to me that's the best parallel I can draw. I have also read elsewhere of how hard it was to move Japan premium fenders when prices were similar to those in USA. I can't find it on the net, I'll assume I read that in one of my books. But that story, seems very plausible ghecko- as to why you paid as much as you did, and the reason your Strat has no 'made in ...' Decal.

I hope that paints more clarity

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Blertles,

Thanks for the comments.

The only slight correction is that we don't know what FujiGen does or does not know, or what records they have. They wouldn't tell me due to confidentiality agreements with their buyers (Fender).

To me, it seems worthwhile to have a Fender rep email them a serial number range (I could provide my three serial numbers....) to see if there is a record of that batch leaving Japan as guitars, or as necks (i.e. parts). That would literally solve the mystery.

If we know if they arrived here in the USA as parts, then they were assembled here. If they were shipped as full guitars, then I have three extremely high quality fully Japanese Strats (and a few American ones as well).

To ME, it's worth the 2 minutes it would take to request the serial numbers (from me...) and the 4 to 6 minutes it would take to send an email, and the 2 minutes it would take to cut and paste the email response into this thread.

Savvy?

There are some laws, which A Certain Large Computer Company discovered, when what they did was import the parts and do a minimal assembly in the US, and stamping it with "Made in U.S.A.". That did not go over too well with the FTC.

If a Fender guitar was assembled with parts that weren't "all or virtually all" from the U.S.A., it would be a violation of FTC rules.
A guitar where the pots and caps come from Japan would likely be acceptable, but not if the body or neck were of foreign origin.

I haven't seen these laws personally, but what I have heard through the years matches what you're saying Arth1

I may be wrong, but it appears to me that we are down to two questions really:
(There are no COO stickers.) Why?
Where were these assembled? ( "these" being -Stds with Kahler, I guess)
*******************************************
After reviewing the thread several times this weekend here is what I can tell you:

All of the neck pocket markings and body markings i have seen on this thread are undoubtedly MIJ.

The only hang tag I have seen on this thread was on peterstratteles pictures. While i don't recognize the signatures. they ARE tags that normally go on U.S. made guitars.
This means one of two things: Either the guitar was assembled in Corona (doubtful) or one of the inspectors in Brea filled the tag out upon inspecting it there (more likely).

(repeating--) Any guitar with a part number (model number if you want to call it that) that begins with 027 or 025 is an MIJ 027-4300 is an MIJ Std Strat and so is a 025-4300 *( *note to Geckochameleon--within your record keeping--do you have your original receipt or the hang tag that came with the first guitar you posted?)*

I don't know if the law arth1 references was in effect in the mid-to late-80's---and therefore am not sure what the obligation to mark COO was at the time.

The fact that there are no stickers on these could be a couple of things:

~1st possibility~
Keeping in mind that "production" is not 4 guitars.....or even 30 guitars---a production run, more often than not, is hundreds of guitars.
It is entirely possible that stickers were accidently left off for a run or two and for a time nobody noticed at the factory or the inspection process in Brea. In which case there would be no record whatsoever of this error. If you ask me to reference which run of guitars or serial numbers in which they forgot to pack the trem arms with the guitars---- you would have the same answer. None. To me (and maybe only me) forgetting trem arms is a more significant event than forgetting stickers. Has it happened? Yes. Is there some sort of record? no.

~2nd possibility~
Depending upon the COO requirements at the time-----if there were no specific requirements- it is possible that for a time Fender chose not to include the COO sticker.
************
While I know that we have never mis-represented where our guitars are made in any way----and if asked have always answered truthfully---- I also know that Fender doesn't necessarily wave its collective arms proclaiming loudly where all of our instruments are made---the thought being that we would rather they be judged on their merits (playability) first and foremost--- not where they were made.
I think if you look at our current line up----aside from U.S. made stuff, this still holds true.
******************************

so to me......and also with all due respect as well, from everything I've seen on 17 pages of this thread----I'm not seeing a mystery. Every guitar I've seen posted on this thread looks MIJ to me.
The ONLY indication i see of assmbly in the U.S. is POSSIBLY peterstratteles, due to the tag----but even then......I don't recall seeing the neck pocket markings or the neck markings on that one. The booklet indicates MIJ.
********************
Lastly......I have no objection to writing Fuji---or asking around with people that may still have contacts there.......but based on the 2 questions that I'm seeing, I'm certainly not anticipating a different answer than you got Gecko. Perhaps you can PM me a copy of your original correspondence with them and i will let them know that I would like to know as well.
To be totally redundant though, considering only the 2 "mysteries" that I am seeing,
the 3 serial number range, the number of years ago this all took place, the number of guitars fujigen made for Fender through the years (Staggering)....I'm a bit skeptical about receiving an answer much different than the one you received.

Sorry for the length of this post here..:O)

All the best as always,
rob

_________________
______________
rob Schwarz
Director,Fender Customer Service
Proudly serving Fender Customers
for over 30 years

Hi Rob,
Thanks for your help and contribution to this thread and this topic, we very much appreciate it.

I also bought my SpyderStrat brand new, and witnessed a fight between the store manager (It is American!) and the salesman (it is Japanese!) over the COO of the guitar, and ever since then I have wondered about it. The ironic thing is, is that is seems to me that the desire to see these guitars 'made in the USA' is partially driven by a desire to see them as 'more valuable' or 'better' then a MIJ guitar would be, even though, by all accounts, Japanese guitars of that era were very well made. I have to admit to feeling defensive when someone looks at my strat and after puzzling it through, says..'ahh it's just a MIJ.' Despite this, I know for sure is that it is a terrific guitar, and still one of my favorites, and many others on this thread seem to agree about their own.

Maybe a bit of mystery is a good thing, in the end, and in that sense, it is ok to be part of this club.