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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:22 am
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Hi Xhefri: that's an excellent post. Thanks!

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:32 am
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DIN0 wrote:
Yep, a laminated fingerboard is when the fingerboard is glued-on to the neck - as with rosewood.
There are two types Fender has used - flat: when the glue joint is on a flat surface, and round: when the laminate is thinner and curves around the neck at the appropriate radius.

I believe you can choose either a Nitrocellulose OR Polyurethane finish, but not both. However, you could have the neck in poly and the body in nitro if you wanted.



(I trimmed your post a little). You're right, it's not on the spreadsheet. You contacted a showcase dealer already didn't you?

Thanks for sharing your opinion/knowledge. It certainly helps.


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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:08 pm
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Ceri wrote:
Hi Xhefri: that's an excellent post. Thanks! Cheers - C

Ditto: When he's start posting them photos, there's fight'in words attached!
For my part, give me a solid maple neck.:wink:

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:21 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
Ceri wrote:
Hi Xhefri: that's an excellent post. Thanks! Cheers - C

Ditto: When he's start posting them photos, there's fight'in words attached!
For my part, give me a solid maple neck.:wink:


Agreed Doc and Ceri. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:34 pm
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Xhefri wrote:
LOL! Just put in my 2 cents! Ok, I know these kinds of topics go round and round after watching the Forum for years. For sure, when dealing with electromagnetics, the type if pickup you use will effect the sound. But honestly, I have built a lot of guitars and test drive them in my guitar building/recording/editing room. For instance, I built this Tele (3 of them now) which is a 67 Reissue (Some call them Keith Richards models):

Image Image Image

When I play it in the neck position it sounds just like some of my Les Pauls. I really can't tell the difference. The type of pickups can create different frequencies and ohm reading which do affect the tone, but the wood very little. I really think that since guitars are very iconic creatures, a lot of sale hype goes into matching pickups with neck and body wood. But the truth is, you can slap a pickup on a piece of plywood (and some guitars are just that) and play it and it sounds good. I have hot rodded several really cheap guitars, junk ones in fact, with high-end pickups and made the guitar sound like most high-end guitars. So the guitar and pickup companies use this mysticism as a sale tactic as it sells guitars. One of my friends just had a custom Strat hand made. Cost him right at $4000. I asked him, Can you really hear the difference on that guitar. He said, "Oh ya, for sure!" I played it, thought it did not play as well as some of my Strat Plus' nor did I really care for the tone because the hand wound "custom" pickups were too thin sounding (because of the magnets and they way they were wound.) But after paying that much money, He heard things I did not hear! LOL!

One time I recorded a Blue solo that had organ, bass and drum accompanying it, which was very expressive. I used a very cheap older MIM Tele that was a top loader with stock cheapy pickups, and the guys that listened to it thought, wow, is that must be one of your high-end guitars, like a Strat or? I took out the Tele and said "this!" They were shocked. It is all a little like Jack White and some of the crazy things he does like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCFXeChXfcI Then watching guitar manufacturers and what they say about the guitars they sell, it gets really confusing. One will say, This is a solid & heavy piece of Ash which will cause your guitar to have a lot more resonance and sustain. Then another will say, this is a very light piece of Alder and will cause your guitar to have a lot more resonance and sustain. Which is it? I do know that chambered bodies cause more resonance, but that seems to be more of an acoustic thing like playing a real hollow body electric will feedback and vibrate more than a solid body guitar—thus why the Gibson 335 had a piece of mahogany running down through the center of the body. So more solid is less feedback and less sustain? I have a few really heavy solid guitars that sustain like crazy.

Anyhow people argue this kind of thing for hours. There was a multi-page thread on this forum about all this a while back. Where is that thread anyhow??? Anyone remember? I submit this in good faith that it is just my opinion and not as a dogmatic argument. I respect other people's opinions that differ with mine!


Cheers for the insight and for the link - I saw that movie last year just to see Mr Page do his thing! Jack White and The Edge were also very interesting.

Where to start, Xhefri!

Okay, I'm fairly new here so forgive me for reanimating old monsters but I hope my opinions and experience are bringing something new to the table and we're not just retreading the same old ground.

I've read your reply several times to be sure I understand what you're saying and from what I can tell you seem somewhat cynical about what the (what would Bill Hicks call them?) marketing people at guitar companies conjure up for us to buy into?
Would that be a fair comment, Xhefri?! You're not big on salesman hyperbole? Can't argue with that, man!

Also, you have played cheap guitars that sound great, expensive ones that sound crappy and a Tele you couldn't tell from a Les Paul, and that you appreciate that other people may not feel the same way you do and you can respect that.

I think some of the contradictions you've raised in all the stuff you've heard over the years are possibly too contextual to dismiss as hype and general BS. There's got to be a balancing act with guitar construction and I'd imagine that it would be easy to misread what's being said sometimes as being contradictory - perhaps. Not to be perfunctory but I'm no builder and I don't want to leave my original point too far behind.

What you're saying to me is that in your experience (and to be fair, you've got a lot) fingerboards won't make a lick of difference. I'm saying that in mine they make a big difference. We've probably never played the exact same guitars - maybe that's all it is.

Nice thought, but come on Xhefri, neither of us are going to fall for that convenient platitude!

Let's say we did a poll and every guitar player with an opinion on the matter (nigh-on 100%, in all likelihood) on the planet voted and we had a landslide one way or the other. Would either of us be happy with that? Absolutely not, right? Right.

There's this ultimate high-ground cop-out in situations such as this whereby someone might say that every guitar is different. Sure, they really are, but not so different that you can't develop a level of sophistication in understanding what makes them different as well as trying to determine what may be causing such phenomena, afterall, Human Beings like patterns and we'll find them no matter what. Just as I have done and just as you have (in this particular instance, in your denial of there even being one). It's interesting that we've arrived at different conclusions and somewhere in the plethora of variables there's an answer. We both know that ain't gonna change how either of us feel, though, right?


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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:36 pm
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abzoluut wrote:
You contacted a showcase dealer already didn't you?

Thanks for sharing your opinion/knowledge. It certainly helps.


Sure did - just waiting for the quote on price and time, man.

You're welcome, abzoluut! :D


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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:41 pm
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Such an enjoyable read, this debate. 8)

As some well know my profession. I'm led back to a peculiar question. We are not going to agree on who is hearing or not hearing the nuances described in the previous posts.

But I believe wood does make a difference in tone even in an electromagnetic situation.
An easy experiment with any guitar would be to tune the string to A-440, then pluck string.
Now pluck again but detune the string to the point where it becomes floppy.
At this point there is no sustaining note and a rather unpleasant thud like sound.

My point is that it is not the (tone-wood) theory, but rather the density of the wood which affects the sound.
Since a string is strung between two anchoring points, at either end of the string, the softer the wood, the more rapid the decay of the strings movement.
Regardless of a bone or brass nut, and whichever bridge material is present, the underlying anchor (body/neck) and it's density is the culprit.

Remember the Travis Bean Aluminium guitars ? incredible sustain or lenght of time the string vibrated, so along those parameters, one is quite free to affect the guitars tone/sound, merely by switching electronic components, all other variables being similar.
But we also know that two pieces of Alder from separate tree's, may be quite dissimilar in density, that being attributed to the tree's nutrition throughout it's life span.

Abject Please :?: + or - :? :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:02 pm
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I suggest you look at the current trend of soundproofing by forcing soundwaves to pass through different density materials.

Let alone expect those soudwaves to bounce back and affect the string without distorting the note (change it's vibration pattern to the point of rendering it nothing like correct pitch). Because all the pickup does see is string movement.

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:12 pm
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I appreciate the benignity of the "debate." I do not have it all figured out. I just was explaining to a guy who emailed me about the dreaded swimming pool routes used on the Plus and 1990s American Strats verses the vintage routes. That is another topic that gets debated. (and I really do not mind the swimming pool as it has never effected my tone from what I can tell!) But I was telling him that I can have 5 Strat Plus guitars, and all of them will have Gold Lace pickups, Alder bodies, rosewood fretboards and after a complete setup on all of them—1 will have a certain magic to it. The feel, sound, and resonance will just be sweeter. 3 others will be pretty much the same, really nice. And the last one will be so so.... So where does that magic come from? The weight? But then how about the feel? Is it the wood, the pickups, the set up, or all the above? Got me! sometimes this is something a bit mythical about it all. But honestly, "most" (3 out of 5 in this example) of the guitars, that are the same, sound basically the same. More often the real difference is that they feel different.

Either way, it is fun talking about the subject. Believe me, after Niki's long address of this topic on another thread, I paid a lot more attention to the difference of sound of the guitars I work on and own. So far I more often just go, Wow, this one feels so nice! I do not think we will ever get to the bottom of this completely. There are just too many variables. You guys are appreciated....

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:23 pm
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Xhefri wrote:
So far I more often just go, Wow, this one feels so nice!


Which makes more difference to the sound you get than any number of mods, woods or whatever.

I'll even restate my challenge from that old thread.

Unplug your guitar, play a open Emaj chord. Then do the same with the guitar headstock resting on a wooden table or butted up to a wooden door.
Hear the change in sound.

Now plug the guitar in and re-do the above procedure.

Hear the total lack of difference between the two sounds. Despite you having added a load more wood to the guitar.

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:32 pm
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nikininja wrote:
I suggest you look at the current trend of soundproofing by forcing soundwaves to pass through different density materials.

Let alone expect those soudwaves to bounce back and affect the string without distorting the note (change it's vibration pattern to the point of rendering it nothing like correct pitch). Because all the pickup does see is string movement.


Niki, I was referring to the strings vibration being transmitted throughout the guitar and the guitars body/neck ability to aid or hinder in the transmission of those vibrations.
I was not referring to soundwaves as they are another part of the equation.
Since in the electromagnetic field the pickup reads the push /pull of that field caused by the string moving, my thought was strictly on the issue of material density and it's effect on the strings vibrating and for how long or short is that factor part of the difference :?:

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:48 pm
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Well thats all that causes resonance on a electric guitar. Vibration waves passing through multiple materials to wood. Cos that's all a soundwave is, air vibration.
It's not a acoustic guitar where the soundwaves get in the soundhole then cause the thin bodywoods to act as speakers. Which only sound by moving the air around them.

In space no one can hear you scream! Why? Because theres no air to move. Why is a unamped electric guitar so quiet compared to a acoustic. Because it moves next to no air (all you really hear is the ring of the strings). Let alone let those soundwaves pass back from the body through the nut and saddles (which would have already destroyed the note on the way in) and affect the string that has caused them (which would only result in a wholly unmusical oscilating frequency because it would be out of time with the original note). So the pickup can see the difference and transmit it to the amp.

I'd rather believe Elvis and JFK are performing as a double act on the County Cork pub circuit.

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:27 pm
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I found this regarding resonance and the violin. Really interesting:

In the swing analogy, the swing will go back and forth at a specific rate. The person pushing the swing would apply an impulse of power to the swing each time the swing comes back and starts to go forward. Pushing the same direction at any other rate won't result in the swing's amplitude increasing. Imagine pushing a swing and then trying to push it again at the bottom of the return swing. Clearly, the swing will go highest when the pusher applies force at the same rate that the swing oscillates. That rate is the swing's resonant frequency. Similarly, the body of a violin has particular frequencies that will cause it to resonate more. However, the standing waves are now surface waves. The waves on the plates form two-dimensional patterns based on their frequency. The type of wood and materials used, as well as the construction of the violin will determine which frequencies the violin will resonate the most with.

The resonating chamber does not amplify the sound. No new energy is added to the vibrating string. Instead, the body just allows more surface area for the sound waves to transfer to the air as sound. When the surface vibrates, it changes the pressure of the air next to it. After the vibrations are transferred to the surfaces of the body, the vibrations transfer into the air. A good violin will transfer all possible vibrations to the air. A violin maker then would want to transfer the maximum amount of vibrations through the instrument into the air in the sound box. Small changes in the plates can change the quality of the note. To measure the ability for a plate to tranfser vibrations, a violin maker dusts the surface of each plate with iron filings and vibrates them at different frequencies, producing different sets of standing waves. The iron filings will move from the areas of high vibration (antinodes) to collect in the areas of low vibration (nodes). By comparing the results to standard filing patterns, violin makers can adjust the plates to produce the best possible sound. The name for these patterns is Chladni patterns.

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:40 pm
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Ah-ha! Chladni patterns. Now that's something we do know about.

Here's a nice little demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0t4qIVWF4

Trouble is, how you apply that to building instruments is not obvious. I was recently at an Early Music Fair and was talking to a very nice maker of period-type violins and cellos. We actually got onto chatting about Chladni patterns and he said, sure you can throw iron filings over the soundboard of a violin, put a tuning fork against it and get patterns. But there's no "right" pattern that you are trying to achieve, and exactly how to adjust the soundboard to tune the patterns is not clear either.

In other words, he said it's a neat bit of science-in-action... but doesn't actually help much in the instrument making process.

And apparently people have tried throwing iron filings onto several famous historic violins and found they all give different patterns with no direct relation between a particular pattern and "holy grail" tone being able to be established.

Frustrating, huh?

BTW: I liked what 53magnatone said above about the rigidity of the system supporting the string's anchor points being a crucial factor. That's a concept that folks discussing this stuff sometimes find tough. Another good post.

Forward, men! :D

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Neck definitions
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:43 pm
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Where are these promised tremolo block photo's????

Cmon cmon, were running to the clock here Ceri. :wink:

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